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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?


  • Total voters
    1,099


Happy Exile

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Apr 19, 2018
2,135
It really must hurt that there have been 450,000 more jobs created in the UK since the referendum and that unemployment is at a record low ... so far removed from the half a million more unemployed project fear claims parroted by the ususual suspects on here. Tick tock ....

That's not really true though is it?

6% of those "employed" in the UK are on zero hour contracts - this means they have no guarantee of work but still count as "employed" for statistical purposes. Think about it: you're employed according to the government even if you only work 2 hours a month because then you don't meet the Government definition of "someone not in work" but are you really employed working just 24 hours a year or are they taking the mickey in the hope that people quote the unemployment figures without actually checking how they are calculated?

As with a lot of figures the unemployment figures are a massive fudge and pretty meaningless. The government twists the criteria to look good. It's not just a Tory thing, every government does it.

The reality - and the more meaningful figures than employment - is that since the referendum in-work poverty has increased, in-work benefits claims have increased, and child poverty has increased precisely because of this. When you talk about 450,000 more jobs being created you're counting an INCREDIBLE number of jobs where a single full time job has been lost and maybe 12 part time and zero hour job-share roles created in it's place. That's not making new jobs, it's subdividing old ones. 2 years ago there were half as many zero hour contracts as there are now (just under a million then - approx 1 in 35 of all jobs, now it's 1 in 18).

It's how companies basically use government welfare payments to subsidise paying lower wages. Scrap having to pay a pension and benefits and instead recruit a load of agency staff on a zero hour contract and leave you as the tax payer to pick up the bill in benefits for low income. The funny thing is people then claim the government has reduced unemployment and are doing a good job.

Have a look at the ONS, FullFact, JRF, CIPD and a host of other politically neutral, independently funded organisations and they lay it all out for you with tables and graphs and numbers that are incontrovertible: employment numbers only look good because people who don't work more than a few hours a month but have contracts are counted as employed. The consequence is a huge increase in poverty over the past 8 years but particularly the past 2, and a massive rise in employment insecurity.

Have a think too about how if unemployment is really so low in a meaningful way (not a fudged number way), why is the government spending on benefits up billions on previous years even with the most punitive, strict and difficult benefits system we've ever had in operation? One that's has demonstrably led to many deaths (government's own reports put it at 81,000 before even the botched Universal Credit roll-out). That's spend doesn't include anything like pensions or NHS either.

Those are facts, not claims, but verifiable facts from multiple independent sources. Worth looking at in your role as "bringer of truth" maybe. That might really hurt though?

For what it's worth Corbyn is just as bad as the Tories - anyone who claims there's a "job's first Brexit" literally doesn't have a clue what they are talking about and is incapable of acknowledging reality and evidence.
 




Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
But surely that would be breaking solidarity in dealing with our rebellion?Ask Wz,as he says such deals are impossible.

They are, and only you and David Davis don't seem to have learned this yet. This may give you a clue, the reason the ERG really don't like the Irish backstop is it keeps us in the customs union, indefinitely, which prevents us doing our own trade deals.
 


vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
28,272
“Factors other than Brexit”
Looks like you’ll have to contain your glee.





On our way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, nothing to do with the EU-Japanese trade deal, are you going to pick the Savoy or the Red Cabbages by the way ?
 




ManOfSussex

We wunt be druv
Apr 11, 2016
15,169
Rape of Hastings, Sussex
Reports of Honda’s Swindon closure would be ‘a shattering blow to UK economy’, says Unite

Reports that Honda is set to close its factory in Swindon with the potential loss of 3,500 jobs would be ‘a shattering body blow at the heart of UK manufacturing’, Unite, Britain and Ireland’s largest union, said today (Monday 18 February).

Unite said that ‘the chickens were coming home to roost big-time because of the Brexit uncertainty caused by the chaotic Tory government’.

Unite is seeking urgent meetings with the Honda management for clarification and called for business secretary Greg Clark to make a statement on the situation.

Unite national officer for the automotive sector Des Quinn said: “If these reports are confirmed, this would be a shattering body blow at the heart of UK manufacturing.

“The car industry in the UK over the last two decades has been the jewel in the crown for the manufacturing sector – and now it has been brought low by the chaotic Brexit uncertainty created by the rigid approach adopted by prime minister Theresa May.

“We are seeking urgent clarification from Honda on the implications of these serious reports.

“The 3,500-strong workforce do skilled, well paid jobs that the UK can ill-afford to lose.

“We will be doing everything we can in the coming days and weeks to support our members at this grave time for them, their families and the UK economy. This will also affect thousands of jobs in the extensive supply chain across the country. This would be the single biggest automotive closure since Rover in 2005.

“Business secretary Greg Clark needs to make an urgent statement on what the government intends to do to rectify this dire situation, if the reports prove correct. It appears that the chickens are coming home to roost big-time because of Brexit uncertainty.

“If the government had advance warning of this dreadful news and did not alert the unions, this is an appalling and cavalier attitude by ministers.”


https://unitetheunion.org/news-even...e-a-shattering-blow-to-uk-economy-says-unite/

Perhaps someone could tell Unite that it's #wouldhavehappenedanyway and not #brexit
 




Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
Nothing bizzarre about it at all.I have had enough of being talked down to and abused by posters who for some reason think they are superior to Leavers.In reality,you are all a bunch of sulky waste of oxygen,repeating fake news from twitter and glorifying in any bad news,real or imagined,you can find.Time to grow up,and get your heads round the fact we are Leaving.If you can't find it in yourselves to support this country,find one you like.Sling your hook.

What an extraordinary reaction to a civilised and respectfully worded question. Are you all right?
 


Garry Nelson's teacher

Well-known member
May 11, 2015
5,257
Bloody Worthing!
Unlike you to post twitter rubbish Pinnochio



Nothing wrong with that poster.Its quite factual. The EU did fail. It was a catastrophic failure of the EU to come with a unified plan to manage the migrant crisis. They bickered for months and months and months and still couldnt agree what to do. Then one of the main players made it even worse and opened the flood gates and enabled traffickers to drown even more.Their catastrophic failure led to borders having to be erected again. Great for countries wanting to protect themselves, not so great when you shout as a major principle of your crappy organisation that no borders are wonderful.
I would love to see you explain how the EU`s handling of the migrant crisis wasnt a failure.

Yes, I guess the EU leaders could just have left more families to drown.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,015
Yes, nothing to do with the EU-Japanese trade deal, are you going to pick the Savoy or the Red Cabbages by the way ?

interesting point you make there, this is to do with EU-Japan trade deal making production outside Japan unnecessary, so factory closes regardless of UK's EU status. which is a shame as for decades they've been making a very reliable car that beat others in class.
 




Happy Exile

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Apr 19, 2018
2,135
interesting point you make there, this is to do with EU-Japan trade deal making production outside Japan unnecessary, so factory closes regardless of UK's EU status. which is a shame as for decades they've been making a very reliable car that beat others in class.

The EU protects it's own - had we chosen to stay in the EU the deal with Japan wouldn't have included car manufacturing because we would have vetoed it for a start...
 




portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
17,949
portslade
Honda's decision may or may not be Brexit related but the timing certainly doesn't look good. I'm sure if the boot were on the other foot, none of our Brexit posters would mention it. Whatever the cause it is rotten news and no-one should take any pleasure from it.

PS Swindon was one of the first areas in the country to declare a result, which saw 61,745 (54.7%) vote to leave.

Why are you then ?. Had to get the Brexit dig in didn't you
 




JC Footy Genius

Bringer of TRUTH
Jun 9, 2015
10,568
You are quoting a Tory mp there with his interpretation rather than Honda. You know that right?

Good to see “project would have happened anyway” has kicked off. To be honest I expected us to leave before this happened but no.

Quoting the local MP who has spoken to the government and Honda about this decision, so likely to be a bit more informed than the usual suspects trying to score anti-Brexit points on this thread or a Unite official using it to attack the Tories.

Fingers crossed you lot can find a direct Honda quote linking this decision to Brexit soon though ....
 




Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Japan has just signed a trade agreement with the EU directly, so they no longer need the UK.

In the meantime,

[tweet]1097248317074014208[/tweet]
 




Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
interesting point you make there, this is to do with EU-Japan trade deal making production outside Japan unnecessary, so factory closes regardless of UK's EU status. which is a shame as for decades they've been making a very reliable car that beat others in class.

That is a possibility, the trade deal does give Japanese made cars an easier ride, but with labour costs being higher in Japan, they will need to automate their processes further, also Japan is short of working age people and is reluctant to allow large numbers of migrant workers, I would imagine the cost of closing a factory in one place and building another is not an insignificant expense, I can't see the logic in it unless the costs are reduced somehow.
I suspect most Japanese manufacturers will retain EU manufacturing, but less and less people will be employed, as will be the case for most manufacturing, as automation increases. By the middle of this century it will be as cheap to produce a car anywhere in theory, what will make the difference is the other costs in getting the car to market, like tariffs and transportation.
 


portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
17,949
portslade
Reports of Honda’s Swindon closure would be ‘a shattering blow to UK economy’, says Unite

Reports that Honda is set to close its factory in Swindon with the potential loss of 3,500 jobs would be ‘a shattering body blow at the heart of UK manufacturing’, Unite, Britain and Ireland’s largest union, said today (Monday 18 February).

Unite said that ‘the chickens were coming home to roost big-time because of the Brexit uncertainty caused by the chaotic Tory government’.

Unite is seeking urgent meetings with the Honda management for clarification and called for business secretary Greg Clark to make a statement on the situation.

Unite national officer for the automotive sector Des Quinn said: “If these reports are confirmed, this would be a shattering body blow at the heart of UK manufacturing.

“The car industry in the UK over the last two decades has been the jewel in the crown for the manufacturing sector – and now it has been brought low by the chaotic Brexit uncertainty created by the rigid approach adopted by prime minister Theresa May.

“We are seeking urgent clarification from Honda on the implications of these serious reports.

“The 3,500-strong workforce do skilled, well paid jobs that the UK can ill-afford to lose.

“We will be doing everything we can in the coming days and weeks to support our members at this grave time for them, their families and the UK economy. This will also affect thousands of jobs in the extensive supply chain across the country. This would be the single biggest automotive closure since Rover in 2005.

“Business secretary Greg Clark needs to make an urgent statement on what the government intends to do to rectify this dire situation, if the reports prove correct. It appears that the chickens are coming home to roost big-time because of Brexit uncertainty.

“If the government had advance warning of this dreadful news and did not alert the unions, this is an appalling and cavalier attitude by ministers.”


https://unitetheunion.org/news-even...e-a-shattering-blow-to-uk-economy-says-unite/

Perhaps someone could tell Unite that it's #wouldhavehappenedanyway and not #brexit

Honda have said nothing to do with Brexit. Restructuring after the tariff deal with the EU. We were a cheap access point to the European market which has now been superceded by the Trade deal agreed with the EU by Japan. So in a way we should be blaming the EU !!!
 


studio150

Well-known member
Jul 30, 2011
30,228
On the Border
Honda have said nothing to do with Brexit. Restructuring after the tariff deal with the EU. We were a cheap access point to the European market which has now been superceded by the Trade deal agreed with the EU by Japan. So in a way we should be blaming the EU !!!

So if we were not leaving the EU would Honda have been taking the same action, given that they would have still enjoyed tariff free access from the UK and with lower transportation costs?
 


WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
27,772
Actually it's that we're letting remainers moan in their own echo chamber up to the 29th next month.

I have to ask one of the most lucid Brexiteers on here, what exactly do you think is going to happen on 29th of next month

(and you know I am going to quote this answer in a few weeks :))
 




The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
26,185
West is BEST
Honda have said nothing to do with Brexit. Restructuring after the tariff deal with the EU. We were a cheap access point to the European market which has now been superceded by the Trade deal agreed with the EU by Japan. So in a way we should be blaming the EU !!!

Silly Billy.
 




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