[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

You think banks in the EU are any different to the UK or US?

http://www.cadtm.org/Banks-are-responsible-for-the

Capitalists are not defined by nationality you complete cretin.......how much more austerity should the poor bear in this country and the EU because of bankers and their Tory chums.

Brexit means change, it can mean positive change, it’s ehy the banks support remain......like you, you dunce.

I think the EU is proposing tougher regulation than the UK or US would.

 

[portslade seagull]

It would be better for everyone if we just cancelled brexit.

Errr No !

 

[Baldseagull]

You're saying things wouldn't change much without a referendum, but I think things have changed a lot over the last 40 years, due to being in the EU, without us having a referendum. We originally joined the common market without getting the chance to vote on it. We were later given the chance to leave, but the evidence is clear that big decisions get made without us getting a say.

How many of the countries that use the Euro let the people choose via a referendum? Countries like ours don't always consult us before making these decisions. I don't see how you can know that our situation wouldn't change.

Apologies in advance, as you have already mentioned the repetitive nature of some of my posts, but as you have asked I have to point out (again) that it was in UK law https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/section/6 that a referendum would be required before any further treaties or amendments to existing treaties could be agreed to by the UK. It was also made clear to David Cameron that we are under no obligation to closer union, without detriment, and that with a remain vote this would be added explicitly to the treaties so as there was no doubt, i.e. we could not be forced into anything or out of anything, and if the UK wanted to change it's relationship a UK referendum would be required.

The 2011 act is currently repealed by the withdrawal act, otherwise we would be having a referendum on the proposed change of relationship that Brexit will bring, if the withdrawal act is repealed, the European Union act would come back into force.

 

[vegster]

Interesting watching Panorama tonight, Adrian Chiles going round to different constituencies and talking Brexit..... lots of leavers going large on NO Deal and sod the consequences, including business owners for whom leaving is close to suicide ! It's really weird, like a kind of collective Sadomasochism is the only way forward ? I do hope these people realise what's going to happen, but I really don't think they do.

 

[Baldseagull]

Your input on this is quite straightforward, you don’t have an axe to grind with Juncker and his conduct while Pres of Luxembourg.

I do, because he is an enabler of tax avoidance and more likely money laundering.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg_Freeport

There is no point in the knock-a-bout we know where we stand.

What I do is no business of yours and your supposition that I am somehow aware of criminality in my role is mind boggling........I don’t know where you get this stuff from?

No suggestion of money laundering in his time as far as I am aware, he just did what Mogg is suggesting Britain does, it isn't illegal, but it is unfair on other countries, cheating if you like. I didn't suggest you were aware of criminality, just that I would not be surprised if you were, you could always have just said you weren't.

 

[pastafarian]

But if the effect of unquestioningly following the result of that hypothetical referendum was to facilitate being subsequently overrun by Nazi Germany then the latter is exactly what you were endorsing.

I repeat: my reason for raising the hypothesis of a referendum in the 1930 was simply to test the suggestion that it was always essential, even in the most extreme and damaging of circumstances, to be led by a public plebiscite. I am grateful for your answer.

Regarding my use of the term 'will of the people lot' that was simply shorthand for people of your disposition, who seem to spend a lot of their time being incandescent. Given the context I guess you realised that anyway.

No it wasnt, in your ridiculous analogy you have altered history and sent it off on a different timeline, who knows if in your altered reality appeasement didn’t buy enough time to arm and equip the nation behind the scenes or even if a referendum was held years later to undo the concluded appeasement treaty and enter the war with the Americans.
What we do know however is that you recognised people would be incandescent if their democratic vote was ignored. You wanted to test the theory if a referendum vote should be respected, and inadvertently answered yourself why, for the sake of democratic accountability itself, it always should.

As of 2019, JD Wetherspoon's PLC can no longer rely on my patronage in any of it's branches because I don't go there anymore. Ever.

It's a standard £3.79 for a pint of Guinness in the Bexhill and both Eastbourne branches and just £3.29 in the Hastings one - trust me, there's a lot of pubs in Hastings but you won't get better than that - but I now pay extra and go somewhere that isn't infected with no deal Brexit propaganda and northern, leave voting, Ruddles drinkers - The sort of people who start drinking in there at 9am, enjoy Richard Littlejohn in The Daily Mail and voted for Brexit 'Cos ders tur mehnee moooslimbs' (No wonder eastern European barmaids no longer want to work in any of them. )

£3 Million they spent of the Bexhill branch. If you've got a history book on pubs or exciting things to happen in Bexhill ever - rip it up and throw it in the bin, because it's worthless. All day opening in 1987, all day Sunday opening in 1995, relaxation of the licensing laws, the smoking ban - none of it comes close to what 'spoons in Bexhill brought - it's even a got a great, glass elevator. Have you ever been in a pub with a glass lift?! Of course not. I'm afraid I have principles though and will not go in there now.

Actually I have been to a few pubs with lifts in them and even at the entrance, they are a great assistance to my old man in his wheelchair and often means the difference between being able to stop for a relaxing pint or having no decent access to the establishment in the first place or being restricted from parts of a pub more able bodied can access with ease. Likewise some hotels use them at entrances as well. Establishments that put these lifts in should be commended.

I don't know why you keep insisting I was duped, I have repeatedly asked you to explain the principle behind the idea of why it might make more sense to have two referendums precisely because I acknowledge it was a slightly different situation, To state that a renegotiation is not a negotiation is a bit straw clutching. If you like we can call it a renegotiation of being non-members, as there was a time before when we were non members with a relationship with the EU, or it's forerunner the EEC more accurately.
The Principle is the same, a decision made by referendum after a negotiation or renegotiation would be a decision made on a known position, rather than the cake and eat it hopes and dreams of fantasists.

You have been told why it makes more sense to have a binary deciding vote after renegotiations of membership and not have renegotiations included as part of a 3 way vote choice. You just choose to avoid the reasoning.
You were duped because you thought he was implying have another referendum after negotiating leaving terms, following a final deciding vote to Leave. You have since backtracked after finding out he wasn’t saying that at all and have tried since to place meaning elsewhere where none exists.

I think his point was that we should not leave, until the people had a referendum on what we were leaving to, that is implied isn't it?

If you can find anywhere Mogg suggesting we could have another referendum after a final deciding binary vote of leave or remain then show the text or video of him doing so.
Im sure you wont be the last person thinking he was suggesting a further referendum after the deciding vote had already been held.

I would recommend you buy British for your next Vacuum cleaner and get a Numatic, stuff that foreign made Dyson junk, and as far as having a beer goes he won't be popping into a French pub as an alternative to 'spoons will he you bell end?

If you want to deliberately boycott British companies and British jobs knock yourself out. I wont be stamping my feet and wetting the bed like a child.

 

[pastafarian]

Good idea, maybe an IQ test before Brexit might have made a difference ;-)

Genuine question though, with a factual based document presented to voters why would you not support a second referendum?

Do you mean a second vote in a few years time when the trade component terms with the EU in a finalised trade deal will be completed (that is the plan) and can be analysed as to the facts contained in it or do you mean a second vote now before trade deal talks have even begun and the eventual debate regarding EU trade that can only be based on “factual” speculation from both sides.

 

[pastafarian]

If there's no deal the WTO insists on there being a border with customs on both sides to implement the WTO rules and default tariffs. It's nothing to do with the EU or Britain

Given the first point, I guessed it probably wasn't worth wasting my time reading any further.

Your desperation is becoming palpable. Don't forget, patience is a virtue

Simply not true.
There is NO WTO rule that insists or requires a country to secure its borders

 

[Baldseagull]

No it wasnt, in your ridiculous analogy you have altered history and sent it off on a different timeline, who knows if in your altered reality appeasement didn’t buy enough time to arm and equip the nation behind the scenes or even if a referendum was held years later to undo the concluded appeasement treaty and enter the war with the Americans.
What we do know however is that you recognised people would be incandescent if their democratic vote was ignored. You wanted to test the theory if a referendum vote should be respected, and inadvertently answered yourself why, for the sake of democratic accountability itself, it always should.



Actually I have been to a few pubs with lifts in them and even at the entrance, they are a great assistance to my old man in his wheelchair and often means the difference between being able to stop for a relaxing pint or having no decent access to the establishment in the first place or being restricted from parts of a pub more able bodied can access with ease. Likewise some hotels use them at entrances as well. Establishments that put these lifts in should be commended.




You have been told why it makes more sense to have a binary deciding vote after renegotiations of membership and not have renegotiations included as part of a 3 way vote choice. You just choose to avoid the reasoning.
You were duped because you thought he was implying have another referendum after negotiating leaving terms, following a final deciding vote to Leave. You have since backtracked after finding out he wasn’t saying that at all and have tried since to place meaning elsewhere where none exists.



If you can find anywhere Mogg suggesting we could have another referendum after a final deciding binary vote of leave or remain then show the text or video of him doing so.
Im sure you wont be the last person thinking he was suggesting a further referendum after the deciding vote had already been held.



If you want to deliberately boycott British companies and British jobs knock yourself out. I wont be stamping my feet and wetting the bed like a child.

I was mistaken as to the referendum he was discussing, and we had already established that, which is why I questioned what makes you think the principle is different, we have done this a dozen times since then, and I have not repeated that error, but well done you for finding the one.

I won't be boycotting a British Company if I don't buy a Dyson, they have moved HQ to Singapore, where they make them. Buy a British made Numatic if you need a vacuum.

 

[Baldseagull]

Simply not true.
There is NO WTO rule that insists or requires a country to secure its borders

If we don't impose customs checks on imports from one WTO member, others will complain, my money is on Russia piping up first. Bizzare that you leavers are now proposing no border checks at the same time as wanting to make sure we have secure borders. Batshit.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Interesting watching Panorama tonight, Adrian Chiles going round to different constituencies and talking Brexit..... lots of leavers going large on NO Deal and sod the consequences, including business owners for whom leaving is close to suicide ! It's really weird, like a kind of collective Sadomasochism is the only way forward ? I do hope these people realise what's going to happen, but I really don't think they do.

Sadly in most cases it's devastating hybrid information warfare attacks on British minds, not the victims' faults.

We need to get serious about defending the nation against it before we have any further votes.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You value his opinions simply because it suits your agenda. It's just more, rather desperate, straw clutching on your part as well as desperation on his. It's unedifying to watch you frankly now Footy Genius. At least 2 years ago on this thread you did occasionally give the impression that you might sometimes know what you were talking about. Look at you now. It's just pitiful.

Do what some of the others have done on this thread in regards to Northern Ireland and become a Brexit voting, lifelong advocate for a united Ireland after-timer. You'll save face and thank me one day for suggesting it.

Says the guy who cut pastes Irish minister opinions ... and then MoS reverts to type, hissy fit central

 

[pastafarian]

If we don't impose customs checks on imports from one WTO member, others will complain, my money is on Russia piping up first. Bizzare that you leavers are now proposing no border checks at the same time as wanting to make sure we have secure borders. Batshit.

Of course others would object, they might have a strong case that it infringes on WTO non-discrimination rules.
Try and read again what i wrote though, i did not propose anything at all. Simply pointed out the error of watford and that there is no WTO rule that insists a country must secure its borders. Stop reading things that are not there.Are you drunk?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Sadly in most cases it's devastating hybrid information warfare attacks on British minds, not the victims' faults.

We need to get serious about defending the nation against it before we have any further votes.

?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You think banks in the EU are any different to the UK or US?

http://www.cadtm.org/Banks-are-responsible-for-the

Capitalists are not defined by nationality you complete cretin.......how much more austerity should the poor bear in this country and the EU because of bankers and their Tory chums.

Brexit means change, it can mean positive change, it’s ehy the banks support remain......like you, you dunce.

Do you know what a cretin is? It is a baby who is brain damaged due to a defective thyroid gland.
You do your argument no favours by using such horrendous insults.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Of course others would object, they might have a strong case that it infringes on WTO non-discrimination rules.
Try and read again what i wrote though, i did not propose anything at all. Simply pointed out the error of watford and that there is no WTO rule that insists a country must secure its borders. Stop reading things that are not there.Are you drunk?

Quite a few seem worse for wear with the nonsense I have read on here in recent weeks ... are we seeing peak remoaning as the exit door gets closer?

 

[pastafarian]

Do you know what a cretin is? It is a baby who is brain damaged due to a defective thyroid gland.
You do your argument no favours by using such horrendous insults.

The word in the English languague also has a definition of simply being a stupid person.
Which definition do you think was being applied here?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

No it wasnt, in your ridiculous analogy you have altered history and sent it off on a different timeline, who knows if in your altered reality appeasement didn’t buy enough time to arm and equip the nation behind the scenes or even if a referendum was held years later to undo the concluded appeasement treaty and enter the war with the Americans.
What we do know however is that you recognised people would be incandescent if their democratic vote was ignored. You wanted to test the theory if a referendum vote should be respected, and inadvertently answered yourself why, for the sake of democratic accountability itself, it always should..

Your first paragraph is a blizzard of nonsense obviously intended to deflect attention from your previous comments. The second is a bit of narrow-focus Pasta-semantics based on an intentional misunderstanding of what was said. No points at all I'm afraid.

 

[Triggaaar]

Apologies in advance, as you have already mentioned the repetitive nature of some of my posts

I wasn't trying to single you out, it's the whole thread. I'll have done it too, just about everyone has (although I expect some are more guilty than others) and I was wondering why it was still going on.

but as you have asked I have to point out (again) that it was in UK law https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/section/6 that a referendum would be required before any further treaties or amendments to existing treaties could be agreed to by the UK.

You're saying it's not possible for our government to agree to any treaty/amendment, without holding a referendum? I don't believe that.

It was also made clear to David Cameron that we are under no obligation to closer union, without detriment, and that with a remain vote this would be added explicitly to the treaties so as there was no doubt, i.e. we could not be forced into anything or out of anything

Sure, no obligation, we don't have to, but that doesn't mean our government wouldn't choose to.

and if the UK wanted to change it's relationship a UK referendum would be required.

Can you show proof of this? I've clicked your link, which doesn't show it.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

?

https://youtu.be/A6gf5whRuQ0