[Politics] Brexit

[drew]

Then the "intelligentsia" deserve what (hopefully) is coming, because they have been the tail wagging the dog.

Rather than blame the working class for their desire to give the establishment a bloody nose you should look at the political conduct of the establishment.

It is telling now that even those in the remain camp are advocating reform of freedom of movement, proof if it was needed that politicians cannot be trusted to act in the people's interest.........they have to be dragged and forced.

They are reaping what they sowed.

And what exactly is coming for them. If there is a Brexit vote, then any downturn in the economy isn't going to affect them, they are insulated from the financial problems due to their wealth. It's going to affect those at the other end of the scale, just as the depression in 2008 did. An example could be if you are coming up to retirement and have a pension fund and have to buy an annuity to pay your pension for the rest of your life. Downturn in stocks and shares will reduce your fund and I'm guessing any annuity you buy might pay a lot less!!! That could be your earnings for the next 30 years!

Furthermore, the expected downturn will affect tax receipts and, ergo, public spending. Who suffers then.

We've heard that Brexit think a deal with the EU can be done by May 2020. 4 years and that is likely to be an optimistic target as is the two years to negotiate an exit from the EU.

 

[Bold Seagull]

A budget punishing people would never get voted through parliament

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The EU is a symbol of hope and a coming together of nations previously at war for hundreds of years. It is a symbol of common ground, mutual interests, the benefit of the many not the few. The world can be a better place if countries come together and strive hand in hand to make the world a better place. Our United Kingdom of countries gave us the Great in Britain, and being at the heart of Europe makes us stronger, to support and be supported by our neighbours. It was the dream in 1945, and we should strive to continue that dream and to MAKE IT WORK. We are British, we don't back out of things when it gets tough, we don't shirk taking responsibility. We need to stay, they need us.

We're at heart of a terrible global recession, of austerity, times are hard but the blame doesn't lie with the EU or immigration. We need to engage with the EU, reaching out is far better than withdrawing inward.

Vote remain.

Woolly idealism is great for the middle class chattering classes but not so good if you are on minimum wage. I think you have been duped. The EU is nothing more than a mechanism for driving down labour costs and entrenching inequality. Of course the bankers like it ! Despite this I think that Remain would have won if it had engaged in the immigration debate without giving out abuse. Most people believe in controlled immigration but the Remain camp are unable to articulate how we gain this control. They then start insulting the questioner with terms such as 'racist' and 'little Englander.' This wont wash and people do not take kindly to the insults. It is also counter productive as are all the threats about a post Brexit economy. People talk about a weak pound as if that is an unambiguous negative. Weak pound means cheaper and more competitive exports but more expensive imports. Competitive currency devaluation is an economic tool in its own right used to kick start an economy, particularly manufacturing export industries which are the very ones we need to be encouraging. If Remain wants to win then engage in this debate without resort to insults and a black and white view of economics that is breath-taking. Its probably not too late.

 

[Bold Seagull]

We'll need an emergency budget if we vote leave to stop our economy from collapsing?OMG.Project Fear is out of control and until next week will get worse.For all those Remainers who dare to accuse Leave of scaremongering even you must finally concede Cameron and his henchmen are totally taking the p.....

Why do you assume that Cameron and Osbourne represent those that want to remain? They represent the remain campaign, they certainly don't represent my reasons for remaining. In fact, I can't tell the difference between the tactics of the leave or remain campaigns, they both appear to be fought on fear, misinformation, economic predictions etc.

If it was me I'd want the remain campaign to step away from the specifics, and spell out the ideology of what the EU should mean to people, what it represents, the historical significance of achieving alignment with our neighbours for 70 years. What the EU could be, could mean in the future. the debate is bogged down on immigration, random numbers, threats of what will happen, short term economic predictions. Whether you agree with the principles or not, there has been a real lack of inspirational, aspirational, ideological rhetoric from either side in this debate. I won't spell out why this is, but you don't need to look much further to who is leading each campaign.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Woolly idealism is great for the middle class chattering classes but not so good if you are on minimum wage. I think you have been duped. The EU is nothing more than a mechanism for driving down labour costs and entrenching inequality. Of course the bankers like it ! Despite this I think that Remain would have won if it had engaged in the immigration debate without giving out abuse. Most people believe in controlled immigration but the Remain camp are unable to articulate how we gain this control. They then start insulting the questioner with terms such as 'racist' and 'little Englander.' This wont wash and people do not take kindly to the insults. It is also counter productive as are all the threats about a post Brexit economy. People talk about a weak pound as if that is an unambiguous negative. Weak pound means cheaper and more competitive exports but more expensive imports. Competitive currency devaluation is an economic tool in its own right used to kick start an economy, particularly manufacturing export industries which are the very ones we need to be encouraging. If Remain wants to win then engage in this debate without resort to insults and a black and white view of economics that is breath-taking. Its probably not too late.

Is anyone ever going to stop calling someone on the other side being duped?

Most people believe in controlled immigration but the Remain camp are unable to articulate how we gain this control.

And the Leave camp have articulated this how? By using the phrase 'points system'? How have they explained why immigration from outside the EU has not been curtailed?

They then start insulting the questioner with terms such as 'racist' and 'little Englander.'

But it's okay for you to start your point with the assertion that anyone in Remain has been 'duped'?

As I said on the other thread, why do you assume Remain represent everyone who believes in remaining? I didn't vote for the Tory party, and neither did I elect them to represent the Remain campaign. It seems people are all to ready to link those that want to remain with those that are campaigning for remain.

If you honestly think that Farage / Johnson / Gove are not involved in the same tactics, lying and smears as Cameron, Osbourne and Co. that the Leave is somehow honest, and truthful? They're Tories running both sides, they simply don't know any different.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Then the "intelligentsia" deserve what (hopefully) is coming, because they have been the tail wagging the dog.

Rather than blame the working class for their desire to give the establishment a bloody nose you should look at the political conduct of the establishment.

It is telling now that even those in the remain camp are advocating reform of freedom of movement, proof if it was needed that politicians cannot be trusted to act in the people's interest.........they have to be dragged and forced.

They are reaping what they sowed.

I'm not blaming the working class for wanting to give the establishment a bloody nose, so do I. However, i'm not sure punching ourselves in the face is going to achieve that

And trust me, whatever the result, it won't be them that are reaping

 

[heathgate]

Another example of the dishonesty at the heart of the Remain camp. They claim Brexit will cause a recession, and now Osborne threatens us with 2p increase in basic and a 3p increase higher rate income tax. Taking that amount of money out of the economy would in itself cause a recession, and he knows it. Why is he saying such nonsense? Well, I'll let you come to your own conclusion.

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[heathgate]

Another example of the dishonesty at the heart of the Remain camp. They claim Brexit will cause a recession, and now Osborne threatens us with 2p increase in basic and a 3p increase higher rate income tax. Taking that amount of money out of the economy would in itself cause a recession, and he knows it. Why is he saying such nonsense? Well, I'll let you come to your own conclusion.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Bold Seagull]

Another example of the dishonesty at the heart of the Remain camp. They claim Brexit will cause a recession, and now Osborne threatens us with 2p increase in basic and a 3p increase higher rate income tax. Taking that amount of money out of the economy would in itself cause a recession, and he knows it. Why is he saying such nonsense? Well, I'll let you come to your own conclusion.

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Osbourne and the Tories aren't the reason for leaving the EU. Anyone having their decision influenced by the competency of Osbourne and Cameron need to consider matters well beyond the political tactics of the current government. This decision will last well beyond the political lifespans of Osbourne and Cameron.

So yes, come to your own conclusions, but certainly don't be swayed one way or the other because Boris friggin Johnson says one thing, or Dodgy Dave saves another.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Another example of the dishonesty at the heart of the Remain camp. They claim Brexit will cause a recession, and now Osborne threatens us with 2p increase in basic and a 3p increase higher rate income tax. Taking that amount of money out of the economy would in itself cause a recession, and he knows it. Why is he saying such nonsense? Well, I'll let you come to your own conclusion.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

are you copying and pasting just to make sure your post is heard on each EU thread!?

 

[heathgate]

Osbourne and the Tories aren't the reason for leaving the EU. Anyone having their decision influenced by the competency of Osbourne and Cameron need to consider matters well beyond the political tactics of the current government. This decision will last well beyond the political lifespans of Osbourne and Cameron.

So yes, come to your own conclusions, but certainly don't be swayed one way or the other because Boris friggin Johnson says one thing, or Dodgy Dave saves another.

....or Red Jezza?

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[Bold Seagull]

....or Red Jezza?

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When he gets involved, I'll mention him!

 

[heathgate]

are you copying and pasting just to make sure your post is heard on each EU thread!?

Yes..... it would make my mission easier if they were all consolidated into one thread... just like the Russian themed threads..... the mods on this site are a like the French police...... just standing by.

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[beorhthelm]

Another example of the dishonesty at the heart of the Remain camp. They claim Brexit will cause a recession, and now Osborne threatens us with 2p increase in basic and a 3p increase higher rate income tax. Taking that amount of money out of the economy would in itself cause a recession, and he knows it. Why is he saying such nonsense? Well, I'll let you come to your own conclusion.

its worse than dishonesty, he is dangerously talking down the economy and advancing new economic policy. if we remain and GDP growth is lower by 1% or so in the next two years as his treasury predicts for Brexit, will he be increasing tax accordingly? because that is highly likely scenario given the poor state of EU economy, so he seems to be trailing forth coming tax rises irrespective of the referendum vote. further, it occurs to me that many would see this suggestion of increasing taxes, especially on higher rate, as a positive and they may vote Brexit just to encourage that outcome. for a man who claims to be a clever strategist, he doesn't half miscalculate a lot, and winged it on the back of the economy doing the work for him the past 6 years.

 

[heathgate]

Another snippet from the times...

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[Hamilton]

Then the "intelligentsia" deserve what (hopefully) is coming, because they have been the tail wagging the dog.

Rather than blame the working class for their desire to give the establishment a bloody nose you should look at the political conduct of the establishment.

It is telling now that even those in the remain camp are advocating reform of freedom of movement, proof if it was needed that politicians cannot be trusted to act in the people's interest.........they have to be dragged and forced.

They are reaping what they sowed.

Is that what this is about for you? You want to give someone a bloody nose?

You do realise that the rich won't be affected half as much as you think. The rich always look after themselves. It'll be the poor that bear the brunt.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Is anyone ever going to stop calling someone on the other side being duped?



And the Leave camp have articulated this how? By using the phrase 'points system'? How have they explained why immigration from outside the EU has not been curtailed?



But it's okay for you to start your point with the assertion that anyone in Remain has been 'duped'?

As I said on the other thread, why do you assume Remain represent everyone who believes in remaining? I didn't vote for the Tory party, and neither did I elect them to represent the Remain campaign. It seems people are all to ready to link those that want to remain with those that are campaigning for remain.

If you honestly think that Farage / Johnson / Gove are not involved in the same tactics, lying and smears as Cameron, Osbourne and Co. that the Leave is somehow honest, and truthful? They're Tories running both sides, they simply don't know any different.

yes I agree with you about the Leave campaign. Just as dishonest. I stopped watching the politicians on both sides a while back. My point was about Remain so I didn't mention this. I do think that the EU project is designed to deliver prosperity to the owners of capital by driving down wages and driving up asset prices. It is a distortion of the true relative cost of labour and yet it is sold as some kind of nirvana of togetherness. To this extent I think there is duping going on although most people on both sides have the best of intentions. There needs to be a complete overhaul of the immigration system and I believe that the current debate will achieve this. It is no longer acceptable for New Labour and Tory governments to have open borders to drive down wage costs for their rich friends. The leave camp have not articulated it properly because it is dominated by tories. If we want to make it happen we vote leave then vote in a government that allows labour to share properly in the rewards of business ie controls immigration.

 

[golddene]

I have not commented on any of the EU debates on here until now, my first inclination is to remain, as in most difficult decision making it is always " better the devil you know etc" but with this referendum I must say I am worried.

We as a nation have been on the whole, well served by being in the EC, but as with all negotiated treaties there are some things we approve of and others we don't, immigration, seemingly the main point being touted by the leavers is very appealing to those of us who feel insecure about our nation state and our own personal futures, be it work, benefits, housing, security etc, but it seems border controls will have to be negotiated away to offset trade embargo's, so what is the point unless taking in only "selectively" and leaving the poor disenfranchised refugees who I believe have been moved to leave their own nation states partly because of our own foreign policies to the sole responsibility of the rest of the EC states,( good luck with that).

The main protagonists of this leave campaign seem to me to be from the far right exclusive elite who fortunately for them by accident of birth can hold views that it would be advantageous to "go our own way" but is this really the case, do any of us really believe that their foreseen dream of the UK out of the community would be the best for the majority of us and that they really give a **** about the rest of us anyway?

As I stated I am worried, this is such a big decision for people to make and who really knows what would be right or wrong, are we being told the whole truth or just being fed the things we want to hear from both sides of the campaign whichever side of the debate you fall on?

Will this become the decision which leads to the break up of the UK, will Scotland, Wales and the Northern Irish either or all see this as not the future they want and decide with their assembly's that they wish to remain?

I pray and hope that the right decision is made by the electorate.

 

[Simster]

Is that what this is about for you? You want to give someone a bloody nose?

You do realise that the rich won't be affected half as much as you think. The rich always look after themselves. It'll be the poor that bear the brunt.

If we do leave, I wonder what will be left for [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] to blame absolutely everything on?

 

[5ways]