[Politics] Brexit

[Baker lite]

Economically Britain's credit card is max'd out, we can't afford no deal and we are completely unprepared. It would bankrupt us

Then there is the prospect of breaking an International law by breaching a major peace treaty. Not impossible TM could in standing in dock at the Hague.

If Blair wasn’t dragged before The Hague for his war crimes I hardly think Theresa the appeaser is going to be hauled before the beak.



On our way.


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[Eeyore]

Economically Britain's credit card is max'd out, we can't afford no deal and we are completely unprepared. It would bankrupt us

Then there is the prospect of breaking an International law by breaching a major peace treaty. Not impossible TM could in standing in dock at the Hague.

Seems even Rees-Mogg is uncomfortable with no deal now.

Understandable.

If there was no deal and it went wrong they would be vilified for years to come.

It's all about the backstop. Not even the thirty nine million.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Does anybody think that May is running down the clock and putting us in a situation that the EU would never accept, postponing the vote and brushes off contempt of Parliament, she refuses to rule out no deal saying that we either work out a deal or revoke article 50, she won't budge on this.
Corbyn knows this and won't talk until no deal is removed, May won't do this.
May has put herself in a position to blame everybody else if it goes tits up, after all she came up with a deal but parliament said no, she is now talking to others but seems to be getting nowhere, apparently still not listening anyway, her party is still very split, DUP still against and little time to draw any agreement up on paper before March 29th.
Could this have been the plan all along, we could either get a disastrous no deal or (what I think she and most Tories want) revoke article 50, job done and she can run away and easily blame everybody else because, in her mind, she came up with a deal that respected the referendum and took into consideration the remain voters and was agreed by the EU.
She can blame the opposition, her own party and the DUP.
But at the end of the day she is a remainder but a great liar with no principles, who has already admitted she will not stand in the next election.
May is famously stubborn if she wanted to remain then remain we may do and she could walk away Scott free.

 

[cunning fergus]

Originally Posted by [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION]
"We must determine whether we want full membership, the euro, schengen, handing over control of the country’s fiscal leavers to the ECB or not. If we don’t we walk away, fully out.

One of the major problems remainers have is dealing with this question, and it’s why Clegg and others scoffed at questions like the EU army etc. This takes the electorate for fools, the pro EU constituency need to shit or get off the pot, some on here like Bold Seagull are clear that is what they want.......what about you?

Anything other than dealing with this question is patronising procrastination."

I'm not sure I'm clear on what I want?

I agree with your point that we should decide on your point above, but how do we do that? And it isn't just remainers who have major problems dealing with this either, it's not like we are seeing a consistent approach from leavers either.

The 2017 General Election really was the mandate for the kind of Brexit we wanted delivered, and shock horror the government majority shrank and leavers voted in their thousands for Labour's Customs Union / single market manifesto ticket. The country first told Parliament what they wanted in the referendum, they then told them they had no idea what that should be in the election. That's not necessarily what I want, but that election mandate cannot be ignored.

I don't think it takes the electorate for fools, I think this is a seminal historical political moment and the realisation that our political constitution cannot deal with such a profound juxtaposition of a referendum against representational politics.

I actually have some sympathy with a lot of the politicians because they are in a position of a landmark historical moment for the country, and they are being forced to vote against, in most cases, what they believe in. When a politician votes through the whip or whatever else in something they might have previously not supported, we call them dishonest, lacking integrity etc. In this case, we are asking the reverse, that to deliver the people's will, they need to vote against their beliefs. We can be really cynical about it, but I don't know how I would feel going back to my constituency, believing businesses are going to fail or struggle, job losses etc. and voting for something I truly thought was going to make us worse off. Yes I have delivered on a referendum result, but have I delivered for my constituents, will they have faith that I will vote for what I believe in in the future?

Before the 2016 referendum, I was surprised that the question asked on the ballot sheet was not a variant of the question used in the Scottish independence referendum. The question for the Scots in a Union with England, Wales and NI was “should Scotland be an independent country”.

This question of “independence” is the key to framing the future of the UK either in or out of the EU as it was for the Scots.

We all know that the future of the EU is for an integrated federal state, if in this future state non eurozone countries in the EU are not orbiting around the eurozone countries then they will be in an EU dominated by them. It is an irrefutable fact that to save the euro the eurozone countries will need to integrate their economic and political structures. This is the alternative vision for the UK, in the euro and tied in lock stock and barrel to the EU, any politician denying this is not the trajectory for the EUn(and it’s affect on the U.K.) IS taking us for fools.

Unless Brexit delivers a clean exit for the UK from the control/imposed laws/supremacy of courts of the EU then Brexit will continue to have a dominating affect on this country politically and socially.

A referendum now on the electorate’s wish for the final destination on the UK in its relationship with the EU would 1) resolve the nature of the deal now, and 2) clear the path for the forthcoming treaties that we will be faced with as the EU integrates.

I know what I want, full independence, nothing less, the alternative is a future in the euro, sharing sovereignty with Germany........this is the time remainers can be positive about the EU.

Put that to the people’s vote, and let’s quarterise the wound.

 

[vegster]

I've been thinking for some months that it won't, but the odds have always suggested it will, so I have assumed that I missed something. I imagine the main option for it not to go ahead is to have another referendum, but perhaps the government would rather leave but stay in the customs union (ie, leave not leave) with all that entails, than have another referendum. Perhaps they will just use May's crap plan A plan B to placate the Leavers by saying we tried to do it your way.

So presumably we will leave softly softly at some point.

The basics of the entire situation are as follows:

When we were in we wanted to opt out of most of it( and we did ! ), but now we are going, we want to stay in all the good bits.

 

[The Clamp]

Don't try to bat the accusation away. You either used a term that you do not understand, or you are playing ignorant of the meaning as it is very applicable to you. I go for the latter, you are a prime piece of gammon.

Is it just me or does anyone else not understand what this person is going on about? Any ideas?

 

[cunning fergus]

At least the Tories have to send it at the moment. Once we're out, do you honestly think they'll spend anything on us plebs?

If I understand your point correctly you consider that decisions made on UK taxpayers money are best left to unelected Europeans as oppose to a democratically elected UK Govt?

I don’t obviously, however I understand all elected Govts in the UK are held accountable by the opposition and subject to a free press.

This does not happen in the EU, and I probably wouldn’t care if it wasn’t for the fact that we put in more than we get back. That means if we get a socialist Govt we will still have less to give the poor in the UK.........or “plebs” as you call them.

 

[Dr. No]

Any ideas?

No.

 

[cunning fergus]

I cannot see any reason why would we want to give away all the positive results of our last 40 years of hard negotiation ?

Have you ever managed to get any water out the bath without the baby going with it

More to the point, what would your preference for the U.K. be, fully embedded in a federal EU or independent?

Sometimes the choice is either the bath water or the baby.

If we want to resolve the schism and attempt to heal the Brexit divide it would be better to fix this now, all in or all out?

Let’s hear the positives for joining the Euro?

 

[The Clamp]

If I understand your point correctly you consider that decisions made on UK taxpayers money are best left to unelected Europeans as oppose to a democratically elected UK Govt?

I don’t obviously, however I understand all elected Govts in the UK are held accountable by the opposition and subject to a free press.

This does not happen in the EU, and I probably wouldn’t care if it wasn’t for the fact that we put in more than we get back. That means if we get a socialist Govt we will still have less to give the poor in the UK.........or “plebs” as you call them.

The EU , with it's ethos of minimising wealth disparity is much better suited to handle our taxes than the UK government, especially a Tory government.

However only 0.07% of our collective taxes go towards our EU contributions so really, I'm not in the least bit bothered that the EU gets a tiny, tiny fraction of my taxes. I'd give 'em the lot if I had the choice.
The UK government will only spend our money to fix a pothole once it has caused a serious accident or death. What sort of ****ed up policy is that?

 

[Triggaaar]

Is it just me or does anyone else not understand what this person is going on about? Any ideas?

Isn't gammon an insult suggesting a white person is angry and red (or pink) in the face? I guess you've called people gammons, and he's saying you are too?

 

[Hampster Gull]

More to the point, what would your preference for the U.K. be, fully embedded in a federal EU or independent?

Sometimes the choice is either the bath water or the baby.

If we want to resolve the schism and attempt to heal the Brexit divide it would be better to fix this now, all in or all out?

Let’s hear the positives for joining the Euro?

Why would you want to join the Euro? I wouldn’t. We had no obligation to join, why conflate the issues?

 

[nicko31]

Have I missed something here, but if May did get her deal through, will she still need to extend A50 to complete all the legislation? Yet she is still ruling it out?

 

[The Clamp]

Isn't gammon an insult suggesting a white person is angry and red (or pink) in the face? I guess you've called people gammons, and he's saying you are too?

He's claiming it means something else other than your above explanation. Who knows?!

 

[The Clamp]

Have I missed something here, but if May did get her deal through, will she still need to extend A50 to complete all the legislation? Yet she is still ruling it out?

Not only has she not secured a single trade deal of the roughly 700 she needs to keep the country running she yesterday said the other countries we are eyeing up need to pull their fingers out and get these deals ready. It beggars belief. She really is a stupid old sausage.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

If I understand your point correctly you consider that decisions made on UK taxpayers money are best left to unelected Europeans as oppose to a democratically elected UK Govt?

I don’t obviously, however I understand all elected Govts in the UK are held accountable by the opposition and subject to a free press.

This does not happen in the EU, and I probably wouldn’t care if it wasn’t for the fact that we put in more than we get back. That means if we get a socialist Govt we will still have less to give the poor in the UK.........or “plebs” as you call them.

Unelected Europeans? They are as unelected as the civil servants who make decisions in the UK government.
Us plebs. I live off a pension so identity with the poor.

 

[vegster]

Does anybody think that May is running down the clock and putting us in a situation that the EU would never accept, postponing the vote and brushes off contempt of Parliament, she refuses to rule out no deal saying that we either work out a deal or revoke article 50, she won't budge on this.
Corbyn knows this and won't talk until no deal is removed, May won't do this.
May has put herself in a position to blame everybody else if it goes tits up, after all she came up with a deal but parliament said no, she is now talking to others but seems to be getting nowhere, apparently still not listening anyway, her party is still very split, DUP still against and little time to draw any agreement up on paper before March 29th.
Could this have been the plan all along, we could either get a disastrous no deal or (what I think she and most Tories want) revoke article 50, job done and she can run away and easily blame everybody else because, in her mind, she came up with a deal that respected the referendum and took into consideration the remain voters and was agreed by the EU.
She can blame the opposition, her own party and the DUP.
But at the end of the day she is a remainder but a great liar with no principles, who has already admitted she will not stand in the next election.
May is famously stubborn if she wanted to remain then remain we may do and she could walk away Scott free.

The EU say the deal was done and completed in October, May has delayed and prevaricated as she knows its not a good deal, many of her own party will continue to refuse to back it, likewise most of the opposition. If she had taken the deal to parliament for debate and a vote on it in November there might have been a slim chance of coming up with some alternative in the time remaining. Instead with a little over two months to go, she said she will " reach out to parliament and listen to find a way forwards " …. But, It's too little, too late.

I really don't know if the whole delay is just a desperate attempt by her to stay in post long enough to claim some kind of pension top up ? Over a third of her own party voted against her in a vote of confidence and they then had to suck it up and vote for her in the No Confidence motion raised by Corbyn. So we have a situation where she barely leads the Tories and can't lead the country without Arlene and yet, is pushing a central policy that fails the tests of a huge majority in the House. Why she does the job I don't know ?

 

[nicko31]

The EU , with it's ethos of minimising wealth disparity is much better suited to handle our taxes than the UK government, especially a Tory government.

However only 0.07% of our collective taxes go towards our EU contributions so really, I'm not in the least bit bothered that the EU gets a tiny, tiny fraction of my taxes. I'd give 'em the lot if I had the choice.
The UK government will only spend our money to fix a pothole once it has caused a serious accident or death. What sort of ****ed up policy is that?

Brexiteers obsession with EU contributions is laughable, they never mention the £50B Brexit has already cost, not to mention irreversible damage to industry, and that before we've even left...

 

[portslade seagull]

Brexiteers obsession with EU contributions is laughable, they never mention the £50B Brexit has already cost, not to mention irreversible damage to industry, and that before we've even left...

How many billions have we pumped into the unelected EU

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Brexiteers obsession with EU contributions is laughable, they never mention the £50B Brexit has already cost, not to mention irreversible damage to industry, and that before we've even left...

50 billion. I suppose you are talking of the divorce bill where Britain settles it's obligations. Would you prefer us not to pay what we legally owe. Your comment is laughable.