[Politics] Brexit

[dingodan]

So are you saying that we should back TM's deal ?

No actually. I'm saying that Brexit is the express will of the people, and as things stand, it's also UK law.

I hope TM's deal gets rejected & we leave on WTO terms, which is what will happen by default, unless there is effectively a political coup. If we do leave without a deal it is that point at which both sides will discover some serious motivation to establish voluntary relations in all areas on which we can agree, as soon as possible.

No deal would present some challenges, but it wouldn't even come close to what is currently described mostly by people who don't want to leave anyway and are very happy to argue that a proper Brexit would be disastrous in order to discourage it. They said the same during the referendum. They said that if the result was leave then the sky would fall the next day. Rubbish manipulative scare mongering. Yes, there would be some short term challenges, but you don't sacrafice significant long term benefit for the avoidance of modest and entirely surmountable short term challenge.

 

[dingodan]

So tell me.... what type of Brexit would suit you? How many of the 'Leavers' want that same Brexit? 'Betrayal' is an emotive term... who is betraying you... and why?

There aren't "types" of "Brexit". There is leaving the European Union, or not. Independence and self determination, or not. Respect for the will of the people and democracy, or not.

 

[fanseagull]

There aren't "types" of "Brexit". There is leaving the European Union, or not. Independence and self determination, or not. Respect for the will of the people and democracy, or not.

To be accurate, the will of a 4% majority two and a half years ago. 'Remainers' didn't stop being people after June 23rd 2016....

 

[WATFORD zero]

No actually. I'm saying that Brexit was the express will of the people 2.5 years ago, and as things stand, it's also UK law.

I hope TM's deal gets rejected & we leave on WTO terms, which is what will happen by default, unless there is effectively a political coup. If we do leave without a deal it is that point at which both sides will discover some serious motivation to establish voluntary relations in all areas on which we can agree, as soon as possible.

No deal would present some challenges, but it wouldn't even come close to what is currently described mostly by people who don't want to leave anyway and are very happy to argue that a proper Brexit would be disastrous in order to discourage it. They said the same during the referendum. They said that if the result was leave then the sky would fall the next day. Rubbish manipulative scare mongering. Yes, there would be some short term challenges, but you don't sacrafice significant long term benefit for the avoidance of modest and entirely surmountable short term challenge.

Made a slight correction for you, but to the point. So you think the challenges of 'no deal' would be short term and that anything else is a continuation of 'project fear'.

I'm quite interested, therefor in how long you think we would need to operate under WTO default tariffs, before we would be able to get new schedules and quotas agreed by the other members of WTO. And also why Russia, US, New Zealand etc would change their current stance on the submissions we have already made.

And also, how we would process all imports and manage the recording and collection of those tariffs at all ports and airports in the interim period. (How long it would take to design, build and test the IT systems, recruit and train the staff, and build lorry parks for any resultant delays etc).

There aren't "types" of "Brexit". There is leaving the European Union, or not. Independence and self determination, or not. Respect for the will of the people and democracy, or not.

TM's deal is leaving the European Union

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

To be accurate, the will of a 4% majority two and a half years ago. 'Remainers' didn't stop being people after June 23rd 2016....

True. Remainers are people. Many of whom think that the 4 percent deficit they lost by should not matter, that their vote should count for more than the vote of the leavers, who in any case are all either thick, racist or old.

 

[fanseagull]

True. Remainers are people. Many of whom think that the 4 percent deficit they lost by should not matter, that their vote should count for more than the vote of the leavers, who in any case are all either thick, racist or old.

It should matter, it does matter.... and so do the concerns of the losing lobby.......

 

[dingodan]

To be accurate, the will of a 4% majority two and a half years ago. 'Remainers' didn't stop being people after June 23rd 2016....

I didn't say they did.

What are you saying? That the minority who lost a vote should still have their way? Would you be saying the same thing if the result had gone the other way?

45% of Scots voted to leave the UK. You don't hear much about that today, frankly because they are honourable enough to accept the result of a vote, even one which they lost.

In the general election in 2017 the Convervatives won 42% of the vote. Labour 40%. Do you hear any labour voters crying foul because they are still people and the vote was won by 2%?

This lack of understanding what a vote is and how it works is a new thing, and apparently only something people who want to remain in the EU suffer from. I think it's safe to say that it's also only been brought on by losing the vote. I find it pretty shameful to be honest.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

There aren't "types" of "Brexit". There is leaving the European Union, or not. Independence and self determination, or not. Respect for the will of the people and democracy, or not.

You're mistaking what you think Brexit is, or should be, for an actual definition. I don't know how or if you voted, but let's say you voted leave for 'independence and self determination'. Those are different reasons than Bob down the road who might have voted to quit the EU whilst believing the Vote Leave campaigners who said that we would remain within the Customs Union. You might see that as still being within the EU - he might see remaining in the Customs Union as leaving.

What I am saying is that isn't as black or white as you seem to think it is.

 

[fanseagull]

You're mistaking what you think Brexit is, or should be, for an actual definition. I don't know how or if you voted, but let's say you voted leave for 'independence and self determination'. Those are different reasons than Bob down the road who might have voted to quit the EU whilst believing the Vote Leave campaigners who said that we would remain within the Customs Union. You might see that as still being within the EU - he might see remaining in the Customs Union as leaving.

What I am saying is that isn't as black or white as you seem to think it is.

That is my point..... it isn't quite as in/out binary as it appears to some.....

 

[WATFORD zero]

I can understand the anger that people are now feeling, but the bottom line is that a few people bullshitted and sold an undefined fantasy solution to whatever problems and issues those people were concerned about. NHS, Housing, Transport, Austerity, Unemployment, Immigration, Sovereignty, Economic growth, etc etc etc, just put your cross here

They then ran away as it became blindingly obvious that what they had promised was completely undeliverable.

In case you haven't got it yet



These were the only people who were 'on their way', as fast as their legs could carry them

 

[A1X]

Indeed,I shall be celebrating our the 29th March Independence Day with a nice lamb shank..

I hope you have space in the freezer...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/13/eu-preparing-to-delay-brexit-until-at-least-july

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

That is my point..... it isn't quite as in/out binary as it appears to some.....

Exactly. If there is another vote, I'd vote Remain. But my preferred outcome is a "Common Market 2.0" Brexit ( Not incompatible with May's deal if the future outcome guideline document is tweeked ) - but I couldn't risk my vote counting towards a 'No deal' Brexit.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I can understand the anger that people are now feeling, but the bottom line is that a few people bullshitted and sold an undefined fantasy solution to whatever problems and issues those people were concerned about. NHS, Housing, Transport, Austerity, Unemployment, Immigration, Sovereignty, Economic growth, etc etc etc, just put your cross here

They then ran away as it became blindingly obvious that what they had promised was completely undeliverable.

In case you haven't got it yet

View attachment 103764

These were the only people who were 'on their way', as fast as their legs could carry them

Many of the problems have been caused as Brexit is a non party issue. I agree that the campaign was deplorable but that applies equally to both camps if you were being fair. Were we to have had a party that wasn't riven by leave/remain factions, then leaving would have been simpler.

Having a government in power that was influenced mostly by remainers but which had to deliver leave was a recipe for disaster. Things would have been at least as bad had labour been in power.

 

[Baker lite]

Oops, implied threat there..... What sort of whirlwind do you think? Violence? Insurrection? Both? Are we not going now then? Don't you think it would be better to consider some sort of unifying process rather than continuing to stir up resentment? Just asking......

I think we should do what 17.4million people who are on the right side of history want, winners are winners, losers are losers and to pretend otherwise will be a national disgrace.
On our way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[fanseagull]

I didn't say they did.

What are you saying? That the minority who lost a vote should still have their way? Would you be saying the same thing if the result had gone the other way?

45% of Scots voted to leave the UK. You don't hear much about that today, frankly because they are honourable enough to accept the result of a vote, even one which they lost.

In the general election in 2017 the Convervatives won 42% of the vote. Labour 40%. Do you hear any labour voters crying foul because they are still people and the vote was won by 2%?

This lack of understanding what a vote is and how it works is a new thing, and apparently only something people who want to remain in the EU suffer from. I think it's safe to say that it's also only been brought on by losing the vote. I find it pretty shameful to be honest.

... then why do you call the vote as 'the will of the people' when it was the will of 52% of the people. The referendum outcome must be respected - and those who feel disenfranchised by it need some solid reassurances.

By triggering article 50, apparently doing little for a couple of years and then delaying the 'meaningful vote' the government has ensured that we are running out of time to bring harmony back to a divided nation. In my opinion, we need more time and so should 'stop the clock' and look for ways forward together.

Either that or we will be a fractured nation for maybe generations to come.

The way things are, a substantial number of people are likely to be very, very angry whatever happens and it is important to address that..... No good just expressing your own partisan anger - the final decision has massive implications for us and our children - too important for democracy to simply stop now.

 

[fanseagull]

I think we should do what 17.4million people who are on the right side of history want, winners are winners, losers are losers and to pretend otherwise will be a national disgrace.
On our way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

But a lot of us want to ensure that our children are not losers and believe that following your chosen path will make them so. No good trying to take the moral high ground on that matter. On your way.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

[MENTION=37837]fanseagull[/MENTION], out of interest, all your posts seem to be in this thread. Whose second account are you?

 

[Baldseagull]

I didn't say they did.

What are you saying? That the minority who lost a vote should still have their way? Would you be saying the same thing if the result had gone the other way?

45% of Scots voted to leave the UK. You don't hear much about that today, frankly because they are honourable enough to accept the result of a vote, even one which they lost.

In the general election in 2017 the Convervatives won 42% of the vote. Labour 40%. Do you hear any labour voters crying foul because they are still people and the vote was won by 2%?

This lack of understanding what a vote is and how it works is a new thing, and apparently only something people who want to remain in the EU suffer from. I think it's safe to say that it's also only been brought on by losing the vote. I find it pretty shameful to be honest.

On the 29th March 2019, it is highly probable that there will be more people that voted Remain than Leave, still drawing breath. So whose will should we be enacting on that day?

 

[fanseagull]

[MENTION=37837]fanseagull[/MENTION], out of interest, all your posts seem to be in this thread.

Or not....


Whose second account are you?

What is your interest in me, beyond countering my opinions?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

On the 29th March 2019, it is highly probable that there will be more people that voted Remain than Leave, still drawing breath. So whose will should we be enacting on that day?

You are not a Democrat if you honestly believe that should be an issue. A dangerous precedent would be set, governments authority would be eroded once a honeymoon period was over, after all, 'most people at the moment want the other lot in'.