[Politics] Brexit

[beorhthelm]

Why would the EU allow Britain (a soon to be ex-member) to cherry-pick some new border arrangement that it doesn't allow any of it's current members ?

you are missing the point, we are not cherry picking for a future agreement on this, the EU is insisting that there is no border in any circumstances. step back, clear mind and think about it without prejudice, this is the backstop in case of no deal. EU says we must promise NI will have no border in that case, or put another way we commit to a no deal ceding NI to the EU/Ireland. think about what party would support this, i cant see any doing so, and it makes everything politically intractable. the original wording on this last year was fine and widely support until someone suggested one side was getting one up, and then everyone went against it.

agree, we'll end up in CU, single market and everything else in EU in all but name. Or ~Norway.

 

[WATFORD zero]

The question could be :

a) Leave the EU and join EFTA, remaining in the EEA until such a time as Parliament ratifies a Canada style deal.

or

b) Remain in the EU.



Something for everyone, takes away any cliff edges, and still keeps the Canada+++ in play.

But the Canada deal only covers the EU, we would still lose all the EU trade deals with the rest of the world and have to go full WTO for all of those

(Canada took 7 years to negotiate, covers mainly goods with very little services and still isn't fully implemented, and that looks fast when you look at the track record of the WTO)

 

[WATFORD zero]

you are missing the point, we are not cherry picking for a future agreement on this, the EU is insisting that there is no border in any circumstances. step back, clear mind and think about it without prejudice, this is the backstop in case of no deal. EU says we must promise NI will have no border in that case, or put another way we commit to a no deal ceding NI to the EU/Ireland. think about what party would support this, i cant see any doing so, and it makes everything politically intractable.

agree, we'll end up in CU, single market and everything else in EU in all but name. Or ~Norway.

The EU have said they would prefer no border (as this means either NI or Britain remain in the CU). However it is the UK government who have insisted this is a red-line, which can't be crossed, not the EU.

 

[CHAPPERS]

the EU is insisting that there is no border in any circumstances.

As does the Good Friday Agreement, no?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

But the Canada deal only covers the EU, we would still lose all the EU trade deals with the rest of the world and have to go full WTO for all of those

Whilst in EFTA and the EEA, we'd have time to negotiate future trade deals, alongside the Canada-style EU deal.

No impossible negotiating timescales, and any cliff edges become gentle hill slopes.

And we could actually decide at some future point when the heat is out of the situation, that we rather like being Norway or Switzerland afterall.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Whilst in EFTA and the EEA, we'd have time to negotiate future trade deals, alongside the Canada-style EU deal.

Ni impossible negotiating timescales, and any cliff edges become gentle hill slopes.

I agree with the principle of what you suggest completely. Just seriously doubt I'd be alive to see the outcome

 

[pb21]

EU have to give ground on Irish border, the issue it not what happens to the border in negotiations, its what happens in (unlikely) case of no deal - EU want agreement that effectively cedes control of NI. No British PM would give that. the comment from May yesterday was important, support her and you end up with soft brexit or no brexit, by allowing parliament vote, or dont support her and risk leaving on no deal. play the percentages, it starts with EU giving way on the back stop conditions.

It seems like the EU giving ground will go against the EU's raison d'etre, and if they do give ground surely it would undermine the EU?

 

[beorhthelm]

As does the Good Friday Agreement, no?

so let that agreement take precedence, not the EU withdrawal agreement. put it aside for now so that its a UK/Ireland problem down the way if there is no deal. as things stand, they force a stalemate, risk no deal and where does that leave the border issue? same place.

 

[Gwylan]

It seems like the EU giving ground will go against the EU's raison d'etre, and if they do give ground surely it would undermine the EU?

The EU don't have to give ground on anything. We voted to leave and it's up to us to put together a deal

 

[Simster]

Eh? I think you'll find that they are there because they won the last GE.

Seriously, why did you bother posting at all?

The point being made was that if Labour were even half-way electable to the majority of the electorate, the Tories would have been slaughtered. They are only there because Corbyn isn't considered electable by a huge majority of people in this country and people plumped for "better the devil you know" despite the Tory campaign being an ignorant, absolute shambles.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

If the UK government refuse to put in place a hard border on UK's side of the border, is there anything to stop EU/Eire just unilaterally setting one up on their side of the border? Seems to me that though NI/Eire may share an island, they're different countries and should be regarded as such, complete with any economic-area-based barriers as may be necessary. And, as always, the DUP should be told to **** right off, even if it means the end of the pitifully slim Tory government majority.

 

[beorhthelm]

The EU don't have to give ground on anything. We voted to leave and it's up to us to put together a deal

they dont "have to", i hope they are more pragmatic about it than that. also: "the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union." is not a one sided affair.

 

[beorhthelm]

If the UK government refuse to put in place a hard border on UK's side of the border, is there anything to stop EU/Eire just unilaterally setting one up on their side of the border?

nothing, except the Good Friday agreement. in fact the EU rules on their external border controls would require them to do so. this is the problem.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

nothing, except the Good Friday agreement. in fact the EU rules on their external border controls would require them to do so. this is the problem.

Reckon EU rules trump the Good Friday Agreement. Besides, any hard border would be reintroduced for economic rather than security reasons. Seems a bit of a no-brainer really. A Red/Green/Blue channel arrangement would work as at present shirley?

 

[pastafarian]

What happens if a second referendum results in a leave vote again

Well the peoplesvote website insists it is to be a vote on the final deal, so they will be voting on the concluded deal that is presented (whatever form that finally takes). You wont need extra voting options like stay in a customs union or Leave under another scenario like chequers or Canada + or stay in EFTA or EEA or leave but untrigger Article 50 first and renegotiate as the contents and details of the final deal will be in writing to vote on. If the vote is still to leave accepting the final deal then that would appear to be self explanatory.
In no doubt though some remainers would want to unpick the final deal and its contents and put forward more voting alternatives even if they did get a vote on the final deal..

 

[nicko31]

Eh? I think you'll find that they are there because they won the last GE.

No one won the last GE

But the Tories formed a government on the back of a £1B bung

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

it's like a game OF SNAKES AND LADDERS FOR THE GRIZZLERS ON HERE, JUST WHEN THEY THINK THEY'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE THE END UP WHERE THEY STARTED FROM , , we're on our way chaps with a no deal, don't have nightmares
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

That's how the whole sorry mess started and we're all in a pickle because of it.

https://twitter.com/leavemnsleave?lang=en enjoy
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

The EU don't have to give ground on anything. We voted to leave and it's up to us to put together a deal

OR NO DEAL
regards
DR

 

[Thunder Bolt]

https://twitter.com/leavemnsleave?lang=en enjoy
regards
DR

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