[Politics] Brexit

[Westdene Seagull]

And what did they mean by it?

.... the words are very simple !

 

[pastafarian]

And what did they mean by it?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So you both do not know? What did it mean?

So you understood the recent referendum question which was almost identical but a reverse of 180 degrees but not this one ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I do not understand what you said here. A referee of 180 degrees? Of what?
The 2016 question was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" Note no mention of freedom of movement, customs union etc.
Your previous question stated "European community" so it is not a reverse of this. They are two different wordings. What is the definition of community here?

Ignore the 180 degrees bit - it was a cackhanded way of me saying something which is about as clear as mud.

So, you understood this question enough to be able to vote on it :

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

but you don't understand this question at all :

"Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community?"

Well bugger me, you were right [MENTION=33848]The Clamp[/MENTION] , some people were too stupid to be allowed a vote !

 

[WATFORD zero]

To be honest. I think the reason a few leavers dip in and out is because the job is nearly done. Also some maybe getting bored with it? Just a thought.

Not much left to discuss is there,the job is nearly finished,no repeat referendum or chance of one in sight(even after 2 years of moaning) and what is the point in continually pointing out to the "if brexit happens" and the "brexit wont happen" brigade, like you that we really are leaving the EU, when they simply havnt been able to absorb and admit this after all this time.

Oh I see. It's not that two and a half years on, it is becoming obvious you have no idea what is going to happen and it's become embarrassing.

Not at all. It's that it is so much clearer what you voted for and the solution is almost finalised so you can't be bothered posting anymore.

A little bit of advice - Don't hold your breath

 

[WATFORD zero]

Ignore the 180 degrees bit - it was a cackhanded way of me saying something which is about as clear as mud.

So, you understood this question enough to be able to vote on it :

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

but you don't understand this question at all :

"Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community?"

Well bugger me, you were right [MENTION=33848]The Clamp[/MENTION] , some people were too stupid to be allowed a vote !

But, despite page after page of complete whataboutism waffle (from both sides), his basic premise that some people who voted leave wanted to keep FOM and/or stay in a customs union is still true

 

[daveinplzen]

Brexit leave voters have screwed the country. Two years on and you still have no idea what the outcome of your vote will be. Incredible. I'm sure future generations will thank you for your effort based on emotions rather than logic.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

But, despite page after page of complete whataboutism waffle (from both sides), his basic premise that some people who voted leave wanted to keep FOM and/or stay in a customs union is still true

That isn't his premise though. He's actually arguing that anything not explicitly detailed on the ballot paper isn't part of the vote. Regardless of campaigns, discussions or, in this case, government leaflets. He's also arguing that governments shouldn't be able to do things not explicitly approved by the electorate.

 

[WATFORD zero]

That isn't his premise though. He's actually arguing that anything not explicitly detailed on the ballot paper isn't part of the vote. Regardless of campaigns, discussions or, in this case, government leaflets. He's also arguing that governments shouldn't be able to do things not explicitly approved by the electorate.

Well this government has been given carte blanche to do absolutely anything it wants from another referendum though a Norway deal, to any solution on NI/Ireland border, FOM, SM, CU to a WTO 'no deal' so I can see why he is upset, even if I don't agree with some of the things he has said.

 

[nicko31]

Brexit leave voters have screwed the country. Two years on and you still have no idea what the outcome of your vote will be. Incredible. I'm sure future generations will thank you for your effort based on emotions rather than logic.

It does seem that some kind of bodge it now and fix it later deal may be in sight. But....is there a deal of any kind that can pass through the parliament

Like it or not, a people's ratification of Chequers, Canada, No Deal, Shite Deal may be only way out of this mess.

Then there's the little issue of stirring up the hornets nest of Scottish independence as well

Yes the leavers have screwed the country, but ultimately the Tory party have the ultimate responsibility for such a poorly executed referendum

 

[Lincoln Imp]

As of right now, the most likely outcome to me seems to be a blind Brexit. Barnier has apparently agreed to Raab's requests to keep contentious bits of the agreement (such as it is) concealed for the time being so the heavy Brexiteers don't prematurely explode, the Tory Party whips are working on the more lukewarm ERG members, May herself is cranking up the pressure on the DUP leadership and discreet words are being had with a handful of Labour MPs. Providing a sufficient number of the further-out hard Brexit campaigners are brought down by carrots, sticks and their own jellified backbones the Conservative Party should be able to scrape a vacuous holding deal through Parliament and open up the way to two years of backbiting and uncertainty. Doesn't matter. We'll be out of the EU. Long live the Conservative Party!

 

[Lincoln Imp]

That isn't his premise though. He's actually arguing that anything not explicitly detailed on the ballot paper isn't part of the vote. Regardless of campaigns, discussions or, in this case, government leaflets. He's also arguing that governments shouldn't be able to do things not explicitly approved by the electorate.

Well as a fellow-remainer I wouldn't agree with that argument although I assumed that Plook's view was, to lightly paraphrase your sentence, 'that governments don't have to do things not explicitly approved by the electorate'. And that I would agree with.

This should not preclude the electorate being asked again in the light of a developing situation, something that often happens, most recently in the form of the 2017 general election. I accept that you don't agree.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Well as a fellow-remainer I wouldn't agree with that argument although I assumed that Plook's view was, to lightly paraphrase your sentence, 'that governments don't have to do things not explicitly approved by the electorate'. And that I would agree with.

This should not preclude the electorate being asked again in the light of a developing situation, something that often happens, most recently in the form of the 2017 general election. I accept that you don't agree.

Strangely I don't disagree with you. I'm just amazed at Plook's naivety in thinking governments shouldn't do things explicitly approved by the electorate. We joined the EEC without any voter approval, we signed the Lisbon Treaty without any explicit voter approval just to name but two actions linked to the debate. That doesn't include the thousands of actions taken by government over the last few decades that have never been put to the voters. Yet, now, on this particular vote, because it went against Plook's point of view he suddenly wants to argue that government shouldn't do things explicitly approved by voters. It's like he lives on a different planet !

 

[melias shoes]

Oh I see. It's not that two and a half years on, it is becoming obvious you have no idea what is going to happen and it's become embarrassing.

Not at all. It's that it is so much clearer what you voted for and the solution is almost finalised so you can't be bothered posting anymore.

A little bit of advice - Don't hold your breath

Still hurts doesn't it. It's time for people like you to move on. It's happening. Get over it.

 

[Simster]

Strangely I don't disagree with you. I'm just amazed at Plook's naivety in thinking governments shouldn't do things explicitly approved by the electorate. We joined the EEC without any voter approval, we signed the Lisbon Treaty without any explicit voter approval just to name but two actions linked to the debate. That doesn't include the thousands of actions taken by government over the last few decades that have never been put to the voters. Yet, now, on this particular vote, because it went against Plook's point of view he suddenly wants to argue that government shouldn't do things explicitly approved by voters. It's like he lives on a different planet !

My opinion is that referendums are wrong in a parliamentary democracy. We shouldn't be using them at all, other than in exceptional circumstances. They amount to a complete cop-out by the powers-that-be of fulfilling their obligations as to acting in the best interests of the country by deferring to a largely uninformed electorate. However, once a referendum has been undertaken, I think they have a duty to attempt to act out what was decided.

Unfortunately, this one is unusual in that there is good reason to suspect public opinion has shifted away from Brexit. But regardless of whether or not you believe democracy is best served by fulfilling the wishes of the actual vote 2.5 years ago, or actually testing the wishes of the people again on such a fundamental decision after such poor handling of the negotiations, all I will say is that assuming Brexit does go ahead, then the ONLY mandate is that we no longer remain in the EU. That was the only thing voted for in 2016, and everything else remains on the table. Everything.

 

[daveinplzen]

Still hurts doesn't it. It's time for people like you to move on. It's happening. Get over it.

Oh really? In what form will it 'happen'?
Don't panic. Everybody on this thread knows you don't have the faintest idea.

 

[CHAPPERS]

My opinion is that referendums are wrong in a parliamentary democracy. We shouldn't be using them at all, other than in exceptional circumstances. They amount to a complete cop-out by the powers-that-be of fulfilling their obligations as to acting in the best interests of the country by deferring to a largely uninformed electorate. However, once a referendum has been undertaken, I think they have a duty to attempt to act out what was decided.

Unfortunately, this one is unusual in that there is good reason to suspect public opinion has shifted away from Brexit. But regardless of whether or not you believe democracy is best served by fulfilling the wishes of the actual vote 2.5 years ago, or actually testing the wishes of the people again on such a fundamental decision after such poor handling of the negotiations, all I will say is that assuming Brexit does go ahead, then the ONLY mandate is that we no longer remain in the EU. That was the only thing voted for in 2016, and everything else remains on the table. Everything.

I mostly agree with this except for the main point. If you get to a point in negotiations where it seems that it's in the bests interest of the country to stay in the EU then it can't be taken off the table, even if that does mean taking a political hit. Unfortunately the Tories know this will destroy them so they have to try to get something sorted.

Tossers.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Well as a fellow-remainer I wouldn't agree with that argument although I assumed that Plook's view was, to lightly paraphrase your sentence, 'that governments don't have to do things not explicitly approved by the electorate'. And that I would agree with.

This should not preclude the electorate being asked again in the light of a developing situation, something that often happens, most recently in the form of the 2017 general election. I accept that you don't agree.

Strangely I don't disagree with you. I'm just amazed at Plook's naivety in thinking governments shouldn't do things explicitly approved by the electorate. We joined the EEC without any voter approval, we signed the Lisbon Treaty without any explicit voter approval just to name but two actions linked to the debate. That doesn't include the thousands of actions taken by government over the last few decades that have never been put to the voters. Yet, now, on this particular vote, because it went against Plook's point of view he suddenly wants to argue that government shouldn't do things explicitly approved by voters. It's like he lives on a different planet !

As a solid remainer I agree with you both. I also had the initial assumption (highlighted mentioned above) and I still agree with this, however, Plooks constant one man band attempt to ram this point home has basically seen him asking for the government to consult the people on every point regarding the final deal. Thats both impractical for Brexit and running the country in general.

I don't live in the UK now but, as a sort of outsider, the only way I see the country getting out of this mess (and lets face it, there is more than one way of doing this) is for everyone to show a little compromise. I'm in my late 30s and don't remember the country ever being this polarised politically. It was always something I have admired about the UK, we stoically tread the centre ground and generally don't give in to radical idea (on either left or right). This seems, to me, to be something we the British are losing when discussing Brexit and it's a real shame to witness.

 

[Simster]

I mostly agree with this except for the main point. If you get to a point in negotiations where it seems that it's in the bests interest of the country to stay in the EU then it can't be taken off the table, even if that does mean taking a political hit. Unfortunately the Tories know this will destroy them so they have to try to get something sorted.

Tossers.

That's why the Tories are probably less electable than the extreme-socialist brand of Labour. That point appears to have been arrived at, simply because Brexit cannot fulfil the terms of the GFA, and yet May has gutlessly continued to refuse to consider remaining.

They'd rather take us out of the EU with an absolutely shit deal and blame the electorate than face down some of their extreme Brexiteers and tell them the whole project will undoubtedly leave us worse off. It's completely gutless.

 

[nicko31]

Still hurts doesn't it. It's time for people like you to move on. It's happening. Get over it.

Unfortunately, a lot of inward investment is getting over it and has realised the sunny uplands are elsewhere. Still you won't care I guess, Brexit at any cost