[Politics] Brexit

[Simster]

What a load of fanciful twaddle. I won't even bother to begin to point out all the individual errors - your blind adherence to anything anti-Brexit makes it a waste of time arguing with you. Remainers all along have been trying to de-rail Brexit - even most of your fellow remoaners recognise that, although they, of course think it is a good thing.

"Fanciful twaddle" would suggest a lack of facts. Which bit of Davis/Johnson having two years as part of the negotiating team before resigning is "fanciful twaddle" then? The fact is, you should be holding people you agree with to account, rather than those diametrically opposed to you. What you're doing is the equivalent of voting Tory, watching them push income tax to 70% and then blaming Corbyn for it.

 

[pastafarian]

...and as well as the day-to-day practical inconveniences there is the closing in of natural horizons. Our land will no longer stretch from the Scottish Islands to the Greek ones. It will come to a halt on the Isle of Wight. I've quoted him before, but this chap says it better than I can.

We hope to see a Europe where men of every country will think as much of being a European as of belonging to their native land, and that without losing any part of their love and loyalty to their birthplace. We hope that wherever they go in this wide domain, to we set no limit in the European continent, they will truly feel ‘Here I am at home. I am a citizen of this country too’.

Makes sense to me. Sadly, Nige and the Borisses are in charge now.

Great Man, always wanted a united Europe with us outside of it,overseeing its progress as a dominant power aided by empire and commonwealth

"We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonalty. But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed. And should European statesmen address us in the words which were used of old, ‘Wouldest thou be spoken for to the king, or the captain of the host?’, we should reply, with the Shunammite woman: ‘I dwell among mine own people.'”

 

[Westdene Seagull]

We hope to see a Europe where men of every country will think as much of being a European as of belonging to their native land, and that without losing any part of their love and loyalty to their birthplace. We hope that wherever they go in this wide domain, to we set no limit in the European continent, they will truly feel ‘Here I am at home. I am a citizen of this country too’.

A fine hope indeed BUT there is a huge difference to being European ( I'm European - I was born within the boundaries of Europe ) and being a 'citizen' of the EU - an entirely artificial political body. If there was just free trade and free movement I doubt we'd be where we are today but the EU has stepped well beyond that aim.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Great Man, always wanted a united Europe with us outside of it,overseeing its progress as a dominant power aided by empire and commonwealth

"We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonalty. But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed. And should European statesmen address us in the words which were used of old, ‘Wouldest thou be spoken for to the king, or the captain of the host?’, we should reply, with the Shunammite woman: ‘I dwell among mine own people.'”

Just a pity we haven't go that empire to plunder to aide us anymore though and we're the emperor with no clothes.

 

[pastafarian]

Just a pity we haven't go that empire to plunder to aide us anymore though and we're the emperor with no clothes.

What a fortunate stroke of luck then we have new EU Empire builders like Guy Verhofstadt pushing the federalist EU empire superstate dream.

"The world of tomorrow is a world of empires, not a world of small nations".

http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/20/brexit-to-leave-or-not-to-leave-that-is-the-question

And you wonder why millions dont share the EU vision of people like him.

 

[WATFORD zero]

People retired to the continent before we joined the EEC and people still retire to places outside the EU. Despite what remainers claiming - this won't stop. You might need a little more paperwork but really, it's like a bunch of drama queens. People will still be able to retire to EU countries.

I don't think I've ever suggested that people will stop retiring abroad.

However for someone from the UK to retire in the EU after Brexit and continue to get their pensions, healthcare and rights as currently will, I believe be impossible. Indeed to do it at all will take significantly more than 'a little more paperwork'.

You can let us know what's involved when you apply

 

[The Clamp]

A fine hope indeed BUT there is a huge difference to being European ( I'm European - I was born within the boundaries of Europe ) and being a 'citizen' of the EU - an entirely artificial political body. If there was just free trade and free movement I doubt we'd be where we are today but the EU has stepped well beyond that aim.

This is the reason 90% of the leave voters voted to leave. I know they say it was sovereignty and EU making our laws but I doubt many leave voters even know which EU laws affect them or which ones we have taken in core and expanded to suit our government agenda. Again the ignorance of it all is just staggering.

 

[pastafarian]

This is the reason 90% of the leave voters voted to leave. I know they say it was sovereignty and EU making our laws but I doubt many leave voters even know which EU laws affect them or which ones we have taken in core and expanded to suit our government agenda. Again the ignorance of it all is just staggering.

more nibble lies

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Great Man, always wanted a united Europe with us outside of it,overseeing its progress as a dominant power aided by empire and commonwealth

"We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonalty. But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed. And should European statesmen address us in the words which were used of old, ‘Wouldest thou be spoken for to the king, or the captain of the host?’, we should reply, with the Shunammite woman: ‘I dwell among mine own people.'”

He didn't, as I am sure you know, always want us outside it. In the 40s, both during and after the war, Churchill clearly saw us as politically tied to other European countries. It could be argued (but I won't take your time by doing so) that your own quote doesn't preclude that.

But he was a son of Empire and had a vision of Britain leading from the front at the intersection of Europe, the Empire and the English-speaking worlds. Dreams of an old man some would argue, with judgement clouded by England's past glories. With the empire being dismantled around him, who knows what his final thoughts were?

Incidentally, my reason for reprising that 1949 quote was simply that it summed up my own views perfectly - and those I would hazard of many remainers on here.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

more nibble lies

View attachment 100475

Oh go on - "90 percent" is standard English usage for a large majority.

 

[pastafarian]

He didn't, as I am sure you know, always want us outside it. In the 40s, both during and after the war, Churchill clearly saw us as politically tied to other European countries. It could be argued (but I won't take your time by doing so) that your own quote doesn't preclude that.

But he was a son of Empire and had a vision of Britain leading from the front at the intersection of Europe, the Empire and the English-speaking worlds. Dreams of an old man some would argue, with judgement clouded by England's past glories. With the empire being dismantled around him, who knows what his final thoughts were?

Incidentally, my reason for reprising that 1949 quote was simply that it summed up my own views perfectly - and those I would hazard of many remainers on here.

And my quote summed up mine and i would hazard of many leavers on here too

 

[Baldseagull]

there shouldnt be another referendum period,the referendum act provided for one referendum not multiple ones, the clearly laid out promise was for the gov to abide by the decision of that single referendum. It is up to the executive and parliament to finalise the arrangements of leaving.

If Parliament decide that they want to ask another question then, they have the sovereign power to do so, don't they? It is being talked about isn't it? So it might happen. The question may be different to mine, but it is actually very similar to your proposed Referendum question that you have posted numerous times on this thread, in response to calls for a second referendum. Leave with a deal, or leave without one, my question to you just includes a bit of detail about the deal.
So what is the reason for the sidestep?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Oh go on - "90 percent" is standard English usage for a large majority.

Really ? Not one I've heard of - 'a large majority' means 'a large majority' .... not 90%. Regardless, Nibble hasn't backed up his statement with data and we all know how much his mate [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] wants data to prove any statement.

 

[pastafarian]

Oh go on - "90 percent" is standard English usage for a large majority.

is it fvck
but cool .....90% of brits want our borders controlled and immigration reduced.

 

[pastafarian]

If Parliament decide that they want to ask another question then, they have the sovereign power to do so, don't they? It is being talked about isn't it? So it might happen. The question may be different to mine, but it is actually very similar to your proposed Referendum question that you have posted numerous times on this thread, in response to calls for a second referendum. Leave with a deal, or leave without one, my question to you just includes a bit of detail about the deal.
So what is the reason for the sidestep?

It wont happen........stop your desperate dreaming

 

[Baldseagull]

The Europhiles in Westminster and Whitehall - unfortunately a considerable majority - are desperate to de-rail Brexit, and they're a slimy lot to boot. Their notion of a second referendum will be, 'Do you accept a really crappy deal which the EU has offered - yes or no?' They would then be hoping for people to reject a deal which basically involved losing any influence over the EU's policies whilst having to obey all its strictures; the people have rejected our leaving deal, they will say - so we'd better just stay in. Objective achieved - enough referendums held until we get the 'right' result, the true EU way.

You may be surprised to learn that you are in a minority, in wanting out at any cost. The result was narrow, and though there are the headbangers like yourself that would sacrifice a level or two of living standard for the next couple of generations, many more that don't want that.
To have Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Nigel Farage, Dominic Cummings as the senior figures in Leave, and to call the Europhile MP's slimy is a bit rich.

 

[The Clamp]

Really ? Not one I've heard of - 'a large majority' means 'a large majority' .... not 90%. Regardless, Nibble hasn't backed up his statement with data and we all know how much his mate [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] wants data to prove any statement.

So you don't believe a majority of leave voters did so because of the issue of free movement? And I don't mean you just disagreeing because you don't like me (this issue of yours really does choke debate, you should find a way to get over me) but you honestly don't believe it was the biggest issue regarding the leave vote? Because I reckon it was for about 90% of voters. That is my opinion and I don't need data to back up an opinion.

 

[BigGully]

Are you getting confused again old boy?

Come her give me your hand and I will try and walk you through it, one, two, three:

When you said: 'The U.K. economy is tanking, the pound is collapsing, unemployment rising' and that 'The way the country is collapsing around your ears you'll all be living in 3rd world conditions very shortly' I was just wondering if you feel just a little bit silly

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So you don't believe a majority of leave voters did so because of the issue of free movement? And I don't mean you just disagreeing because you don't like me (this issue of yours really does choke debate, you should find a way to get over me) but you honestly don't believe it was the biggest issue regarding the leave vote? Because I reckon it was for about 90% of voters. That is my opinion and I don't need data to back up an opinion.

No, I don't believe that 90% of voters voted leave with freedom of movement being their biggest issue.

PS - I don't have a problem with you Nibble, I just think it would help your mental well being if you finally admitted to being a hypocritical liar. That's your problem not mine though.

 

[Baldseagull]

There wont be a Norway style deal
We dont want it and the EU themselves have ruled it out as impossible.

Do you really think the EU are going to compromise on a Norway style deal thats pemits free movement to end,has no financial contributions to the budget and has no influence from the ECJ when they have said themselves a Norway deal is not possible unless you accept with it free movement, budget contributions and influence of the ECJ

View attachment 100471

Yeah, you've put that up before and claimed it as evidence of the EU ruling out a Norway deal. It does so on the basis of Theresa Mays red lines, the EU is simply respecting what they have been told are no go options from the UK. Those red lines are not set in stone, they are just the current position, just as not holding a snap election was a position, until Theresa changed her mind.
That graphic indicates where Theresa Mays red lines logically lead us, not what the EU is saying is impossible from their side.