[Politics] Brexit

[The Clamp]

Why,are you moving?Lovely place,Bury.Very friendly people.

Crudely swerved. And serves to remind us that you don’t give a stuff who the leave vote has done over.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I accept you want to remain and you know I want to leave.

IMO, what we should have done is:
1. Prepare for No Deal. I accept the even with 2 years worth of preparations there will be issues. However, people/companies are very good at overcoming challenges. Yes, the initial few days/weeks would create wonderful headlines for the "I told you so" brigade, but the fact is leavers accept there will be a period of change but see the destination as important and not the short-term impact. I accept you may disagree with my views, but that's your opinion.
2. Said to the EU, if they want to play hard-ball then we have things we can play hard-ball over. Security, money, five eyes, defence forces stationed around the EU. This is a negotiation between adversaries. That is how they have treated us, so we should do the same. For example, the Galileo project has had a huge amount of UK funding/expertise and they want to kick us out based on spurious rules. They have threatened us with planes not flying FFS. That's not allies having a discussion.
3. We should say to the EU, there will not be infrastructure on the NI border. If this falls foul of WTO rules, then both parties are impacted. The UK and the EU.

At every stage we have rolled over (see my previous post about remainers running the negotiations) and not stood up to them. TM is useless and her track record is a disaster. Crap home secretary, totally inept election campaign and like a rabbit in the headlights trying to run the Brexit process. I'm usually a Tory supporter and I despise her - nearly as much as Bliar

But Farage and Leave indicated that no preparation would be necessary, that we'd get a good deal and it would be easy. Indeed - May was criticised for not triggering Article 50 sooner. If Farage had had his way the 2 years would have been up by now, and that would have made for interesting times this summer with No Deal, the lapsing of Open Skies and a shit UK harvest

 

[larus]

But Farage and Leave indicated that no preparation would be necessary, that we'd get a good deal and it would be easy. Indeed - May was criticised for not triggering Article 50 sooner. If Farage had had his way the 2 years would have been up by now, and that would have made for interesting times this summer with No Deal, the lapsing of Open Skies and a shit UK harvest

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You make it seem as though there were only lies on the Leave side. This is why I steer clear of this thread a lot now. The blinkered comments from both sides is exasperating.

Yes there were lies/exaggerations from the leave side. Do you accept that there are also lies from the Remain side (which have already been proven false anyway)?

I never believed the EU would negotiate in good faith - their track record of “the project is everything” was not a good basis. I accept that some would have believed that and may have voted differently. However, to balance that, if the remain shade had been honest about the impact of a Leave vote, more wavering voters would have voted leave. What the impact of that would have been - who knows. If anyone says otherwise, they’re just a complete liar.

 

[The Clamp]

\

You make it seem as though there were only lies on the Leave side. This is why I steer clear of this thread a lot now. The blinkered comments from both sides is exasperating.

Yes there were lies/exaggerations from the leave side. Do you accept that there are also lies from the Remain side (which have already been proven false anyway)?

I never believed the EU would negotiate in good faith - their track record of “the project is everything” was not a good basis. I accept that some would have believed that and may have voted differently. However, to balance that, if the remain shade had been honest about the impact of a Leave vote, more wavering voters would have voted leave. What the impact of that would have been - who knows. If anyone says otherwise, they’re just a complete liar.

Huh? You’re on this thread loads!

 

[Two Professors]

Crudely swerved. And serves to remind us that you don’t give a stuff who the leave vote has done over.

I really have no idea what you are on about.There are more than 8500 current vacancies for work in Bury.

 

[larus]

Huh? You’re on this thread loads!

I dip in occasionally. Then I’ll have days without posting. Not one person has changed their mind and very few are willing to admit that their view/side is not perfect. The constant accusations of Leavers being Thick, Xenophobic, Racist etc does my head in.

There are some who post sensible points which then get dismissed with the usual vitriol by certain loud mouths who lack intelligence to see that the establishment would prefer to thwart Brexit or achieve Brino, and some leavers won’t admit that there is uncertainty.

Whenever I read this now I think ‘why bother?’. So few are willing to concede from either side.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I only comment on here occasionally now as I have not seen one person changed their view over the last 2 years. It’s become too tribal.

Not one person has changed their mind and very few are willing to admit that their view/side is not perfect. .

NSC Poll June 2016 How would you vote in a referendum? - 56% remain, 38% leave

NSC Poll July 2018 How would you vote in a referendum? - 75% remain, 21% leave

 

[The Clamp]

I dip in occasionally. Then I’ll have days without posting. Not one person has changed their mind and very few are willing to admit that their view/side is not perfect. The constant accusations of Leavers being Thick, Xenophobic, Racist etc does my head in.

There are some who post sensible points which then get dismissed with the usual vitriol by certain loud mouths who lack intelligence to see that the establishment would prefer to thwart Brexit or achieve Brino, and some leavers won’t admit that there is uncertainty.

Whenever I read this now I think ‘why bother?’. So few are willing to concede from either side.

Most people have changed their minds. To remain.

 

[The Clamp]

I really have no idea what you are on about.There are more than 8500 current vacancies for work in Bury.

No, I really believe you don't. Don't worry about it,cannot be bothered to explain again.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

He's pissing in the wind, and he fully knows it.

The specific areas of funding we were discussing were research grants to Universities. Currently they get significant sums from EU grants. His view is that pointing that out was irrelevant as the money was originally ours anyway. His view is that we can just pay those funds direct, and it is a valid view, were it not based on blind faith.

The money will not be paid direct, because the post-Brexit economy will not support it. Frivolous nonsense like research grants (and spending on leisure facilities, or the arts, etc) will be at the front line of the inevitable cuts.

View attachment 99369

Thanks.

That is a laudable objective, for sure, and it is heartening that it has cross-party support.

It doesn't address my point above at all though. I didn't suggest there is no desire to fund research. More that there will be no money to fund it.

 

[larus]

NSC Poll June 2016 How would you vote in a referendum? - 56% remain, 38% leave

NSC Poll July 2018 How would you vote in a referendum? - 75% remain, 21% leave

2 points.

1. NSC is a microcosm of the UK to totally irrelevant.
2. Have the same people voted in the poll? You have a different result, but that doesn’t mean that those who voted leave have changed their minds.

The above are both facts BTW.

 

[larus]

Most people have changed their minds. To remain.

And you have exemplified why it’s pointless entering into debate.

Polls show a slight change (not most people). However, how much of this is temporary (and the polls will change again) and how much has been influenced by the incompetence of the May/Hammond/Robbins Remainer Dream-Team trying to sabotage Brexit?
Again, see my earlier posts as to why this is not Brexiteers leading the exit by remainers.

 

[The Clamp]

2 points.

1. NSC is a microcosm of the UK to totally irrelevant.
2. Have the same people voted in the poll? You have a different result, but that doesn’t mean that those who voted leave have changed their minds.

The above are both facts BTW.

1. You said nobody on here has changed their minds.
2. Doesn't matter as long as they're members of NSC.

 

[The Clamp]

And you have exemplified why it’s pointless entering into debate.

Polls show a slight change (not most people). However, how much of this is temporary (and the polls will change again) and how much has been influenced by the incompetence of the May/Hammond/Robbins Remainer Dream-Team trying to sabotage Brexit?
Again, see my earlier posts as to why this is not Brexiteers leading the exit by remainers.

A huge difference actually! Anyway, if the thread isn't to your liking, do one. You are just as guilty of slinging mud as anyone. Dunno why you have "returned" with this holier than thou facade, you're as argumentative and rude as the best of 'em! And as for you not coming on here often...a glance at your recent post history tells a very different story.

 

[WATFORD zero]

2 points.

1. NSC is a microcosm of the UK to totally irrelevant.
2. Have the same people voted in the poll? You have a different result, but that doesn’t mean that those who voted leave have changed their minds.

The above are both facts BTW.

So when you say you don't come on here anymore because nobody on here changes their mind

1. You are one of the most regular Brexit posters on here.
2. You are either mistaken or lying when you say no-one on NSC has changed their mind.

These are facts BTW

And if I remember rightly, you're the poster who insists we can implement WTO rules and Tariffs with no Borders or Customs controls, then accuses the government of incompetence

 

[Pavilionaire]

\

You make it seem as though there were only lies on the Leave side. This is why I steer clear of this thread a lot now. The blinkered comments from both sides is exasperating.

Yes there were lies/exaggerations from the leave side. Do you accept that there are also lies from the Remain side (which have already been proven false anyway)?

I never believed the EU would negotiate in good faith - their track record of “the project is everything” was not a good basis. I accept that some would have believed that and may have voted differently. However, to balance that, if the remain shade had been honest about the impact of a Leave vote, more wavering voters would have voted leave. What the impact of that would have been - who knows. If anyone says otherwise, they’re just a complete liar.

Do I accept that there were lies on the Leave side? Yes I do. Do I think those lies were in any way comparable in scale to the complete untruths of the Leave campaign? Absolutely not.

Project Fear is basically correct, apart from the the timing. Cameron and Osborne made it sound like it would all happen the day after the vote - this was plain wrong - and not a gradual descent into chaos finally escalating the day after the time on the 2-year clock expires.

We were never going to get a Deal from the EU, so to mislead the voters that we would is bad, but to say the Deal would be easily obtained and they need us more than we need them is downright irresponsible.

 

[Two Professors]

Thanks.

That is a laudable objective, for sure, and it is heartening that it has cross-party support.

It doesn't address my point above at all though. I didn't suggest there is no desire to fund research. More that there will be no money to fund it.

If you really believe that Great Britain is to become a banana republic,why are you still here?We have always been a world centre for invention and innovation,and I don't think the EU nanny state has killed that off yet.No matter how utterly useless our politicians are,we have always managed to triumph over adversity.Some of us still have great faith in Britain,justified I believe.No doubt you will take the piss out of this view,but I really don't care.Research projects,private and state,are our hope for the future,and if you and your ilk cannot see that then move elsewhere,somewhere nanny can look after you.

 

[larus]

1. You said nobody on here has changed their minds.
2. Doesn't matter as long as they're members of NSC.

Let me explain clearly again for you as you either didn’t read or didn’t understand.

To know if someone has changed their mind, you need to know who has voted in both polls. Just because the percentage is different, it may mean that more people are on the forum now and they are remainers, or maybe as it’s summer, more people are away and not on here built the season starts. You don’t KNOW if anyone has CHANGED their mind between the polls, just that there’s been a poll on NSC (wow, the world revolves aound NSC) and the percentage has changed.

I’ve not seen any of the regular posters on the thread change their views in 2 years.

I have read articles where people who voted remain now say we must implement Brexit, otherwise it will undermine democracy even more. So don’t confuse a small poll (based on what - really?) with a population of 66m or whatever we are now.

 

[daveinprague]

Its perverse, what Brexit is giving the country. Basically **** all, other than misery for generations, to satisify people, who will probably be most affected by it and will blame everybody else when their lives end up in chaos. Let them get on with it. Ive decided to stay here, rather than return when I retire.

 

[The Clamp]

If you really believe that Great Britain is to become a banana republic,why are you still here?We have always been a world centre for invention and innovation,and I don't think the EU nanny state has killed that off yet.No matter how utterly useless our politicians are,we have always managed to triumph over adversity.Some of us still have great faith in Britain,justified I believe.No doubt you will take the piss out of this view,but I really don't care.Research projects,private and state,are our hope for the future,and if you and your ilk cannot see that then move elsewhere,somewhere nanny can look after you.

What research projects are you specifically interested in and in what way do you think they will benefit the future of the UK? In what way are they being funded? Which facilities and individuals are heading up the research and in which fields? I'm assuming you have an idea in mind without having to Google. It seems a cause close to your heart.