[Politics] Brexit

[Simster]

What are the advantages of joining a customs union where we have no vote no veto no influence or input on our international trade or the international trade The EU will do on our behalf, because we will be out of the EU body that makes these decisions?

Yes I know, I don't want to change anything thanks. But you do, and singularly fail to provide any form of solution on how it's going to happen.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

No its not a secret, are you seriously going to say you havnt heard of both sides discussing technological solutions.

Certainly Boris has addressed the issue with his customary grasp of detail.(In effect - "f&ck it, who cares?"). But I think the ball is in the our court? As Bernier is apt to say, ironically in the style of Basil Fawlty talking to the Germans, "you started it". I think we underestimate on the determination of the EU to maintain the integrity of the single market....unless this is just a shrewd negotiating position.

It's instructive to ask the question: 'what does the EU want as the outcome of these negotiations?' I'm 'with' the leavers' perspective in that I guess they want unfettered access to UK markets and they'd also like to keep at least some of the UK Budget contribution. What are they prepared to 'sacrifice' to get these? This is what negotiation is about and the lose-lose (which is how I frame the Ress-Mogg outcome) should concentrate the minds of both parties. But we've at least got to be organised enough to present a coherent case - which everyone awaits. This sets up May's Friday speech - we can't keep prevaricating: the 'deep and meaningful relationship' needs explaining.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

No its not a secret, are you seriously going to say you havnt heard of both sides discussing technological solutions.

And both sides have seen the flaws in it and why it wont work.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Why do you even waste one seconds breath and typing digits arguing with these people?

Anyone who disrespects people who put their lives in the line to protect the Uk has lost the argument straight away....

You're right. I'd love those posters to visit Northern Ireland and see what progress has been made since the Good Friday agreement. Over 3K people died in the Troubles, but it's all the fault of the EU.

 

[pastafarian]

So that's your answer ?

I'll try once more.

Out of interest, what's your preferred solution to Ireland (As a clue, you may want to talk about borders, GFA, DUP, Movement of people, Goods, etc etc)

you can try 100 times, my answer is still the same, i believe the technological solutions the EU and the UK are discussing with regard to the Irish border will not result in the fallback draft customs union option outlined that as caused so many remainers to rejoice today thinking we have screwed the Tories.
SO knowing we are leaving the EU and going to be outside the single market and customs union.........whats your solution?

 

[WATFORD zero]

you can try 100 times, my answer is still the same, i believe the technological solutions the EU and the UK are discussing with regard to the Irish border will not result in the fallback draft customs union option outlined that as caused so many remainers to rejoice today thinking we have screwed the Tories.
SO knowing we are leaving the EU and going to be outside the single market and customs union.........whats your solution?

You could have saved us both a lot of typing by simply saying I don't have one

 

[Simster]

you can try 100 times, my answer is still the same, i believe the technological solutions the EU and the UK are discussing with regard to the Irish border will not result in the fallback draft customs union option outlined that as caused so many remainers to rejoice today thinking we have screwed the Tories.
SO knowing we are leaving the EU and going to be outside the single market and customs union.........whats your solution?

Absolutely pitiful.

 

[pastafarian]

Yes I know, I don't want to change anything thanks. But you do, and singularly fail to provide any form of solution on how it's going to happen.

interesting you like to dodge the actual question.....lets try again
What are the advantages of joining a customs union where we have no vote no veto no influence or input on our international trade or the international trade The EU will do on our behalf, because we will be out of the EU body that makes these decisions?

 

[vegster]

Certainly Boris has addressed the issue with his customary grasp of detail.(In effect - "f&ck it, who cares?"). But I think the ball is in the our court? As Bernier is apt to say, ironically in the style of Basil Fawlty talking to the Germans, "you started it". I think we underestimate on the determination of the EU to maintain the integrity of the single market....unless this is just a shrewd negotiating position.

It's instructive to ask the question: 'what does the EU want as the outcome of these negotiations?' I'm 'with' the leavers' perspective in that I guess they want unfettered access to UK markets and they'd also like to keep at least some of the UK Budget contribution. What are they prepared to 'sacrifice' to get these? This is what negotiation is about and the lose-lose (which is how I frame the Ress-Mogg outcome) should concentrate the minds of both parties. But we've at least got to be organised enough to present a coherent case - which everyone awaits. This sets up May's Friday speech - we can't keep prevaricating: the 'deep and meaningful relationship' needs explaining.

We were led to believe that the EU would be desperate to keep the UK sweet as we were their biggest market for so many goods and services, and that they would be desperate to maintain the current levels of trade, " the easiest deal in the world " ......not going so well now though. I really wouldn't be expecting much from May's speech, it will probably throw up a new tagline for what we seek, at least for a couple of weeks until the next cabinet member contradicts it and the squabbling continues. How the EU are supposed to negotiate with our shower is beyond me.

 

[pastafarian]

Frack me
Note to self.....dont take the early shift

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

interesting you like to dodge the actual question.....lets try again
What are the advantages of joining a customs union where we have no vote no veto no influence or input on our international trade or the international trade The EU will do on our behalf, because we will be out of the EU body that makes these decisions?

If the alternative is to stay in the EU then you are right - it is difficult to argue the case.
If the alternative is to crash out onto WTO-rules then it is infinitely preferable (seems to be thus with British business).
So let's all agree and simply stay in the EU.

 

[WATFORD zero]

So to summarise the Leavers solutions to Ireland

Westdene Seagull - A United Ireland

I'm really not bothered about about the Tory government - all our governments have been as bad as each other. BUT yes, Brexit should happen AND we should have handed back Northern Ireland to Eire many many years ago.

beoththelm - Lots of borders, no borders (I think)

you can separate movement of goods and movement of people. and seperate border control as the EU does (Schengen is not EU agreement). you can separate spheres of control too, so there are different rules for goods across the land border and sea border. so broadly, you can maintain free movement of Irish and UK people across those borders, have goods restrictions on sea border while not on the land border.

...not what you wrote, pretty clear im suggesting no borders. i dont think you want to play, turning each point on its head deliberatly. except for the EU to treat Ireland slightly differently to the rest of EU in respect to UK only. they do this elsewhere, they can make exceptions when they want to.

If there are no borders, where are you going to control and monitor these bloody goods FFS

I'm really not trying to be awkward but .....

yeah, fair point.

pastafarian - Technology innit

Mine is the solution that was omitted from the draft, the one that could involve technology with regards to customs, the option that is actually being considered between us and the UK as a viable alternative to the fall back position outlined badly by the EU yesterday.

Maybe [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] has the answer. Good to see the Brexiteers getting all their ducks in a row

 

[Simster]

interesting you like to dodge the actual question.....lets try again
What are the advantages of joining a customs union where we have no vote no veto no influence or input on our international trade or the international trade The EU will do on our behalf, because we will be out of the EU body that makes these decisions?

I've not dodged anything. I told you there are no advantages to a customs union except the one thing that matters most - that it preserves the GFA. The best solution would be to stay within the EU (but you've got your fingers in your ears there). So I really don't think I can be more clear than that.

So let's try again, although I fear you'll dodge the question yourself. Given that - having signed the GFA, we are now looking to change the status quo of free movement across the EU, of which both sides of the Irish border are members - what is YOUR solution to it? You'll need to frame an answer with reference to movement of goods, services and people across that border to avoid dodging the question.

Frack me
Note to self.....dont take the early shift

Indeed, you seem MILES out of your depth.

 

[pastafarian]

You're right. I'd love those posters to visit Northern Ireland and see what progress has been made since the Good Friday agreement. Over 3K people died in the Troubles, but it's all the fault of the EU.

This is what disgusts me about the Brexit debate, people like you politicising The GFA because you have run out of excuses to overturn Brexit.You should be ****ing ashamed of yourself.....but you wont be,your infantile moral pomposity is skewed only to acknowledge your own bigotry

 

[ManOfSussex]

So to summarise the Leavers solutions to Ireland

Westdene Seagull - A United Ireland



beoththelm - Lots of borders, no borders (I think)










pastafarian - Technology innit





Maybe [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] has the answer. Good to see the Brexiteers getting all their ducks in a row

You forgot the 'Blame it on The EU if a hard border happens' one, overlooking the fact we joined the The EEC/EU/EEA et all at the same time as The Republic of Ireland and intertwined and integrated for 40+ years alongside them in an organisation of international treaties enshrined in law and are now we're the ones who threw our toys out of the pram and are wanting to walk away, Dublin aren't blaming The EU for this mess and Anglo-Irish relations are souring and getting worse a daily basis.

 

[Simster]

Maybe [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] has the answer. Good to see the Brexiteers getting all their ducks in a row

His answer is to accuse you of being "unpatriotic" for daring to question anything.

To be fair, our dear NSC Brexiteers seem as united and as capable of instilling confidence in our position as the cabinet.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Out of interest, what's your preferred solution to Ireland [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] and [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION]

It's a fair question and not a straight forward answer. As yet I've not seen anyone define what a hard border is. After all, try entering mainland UK via any port or airport and you are subject to checks. For me it should be a semi-hard border between NI & Eire. Freight should be pre-registered and checked if the registration doesn't match and normal citizen traffic allowed through unhindered. Normal checks, as currently are in place, used on the mainland.

 

[Simster]

This is what disgusts me about the Brexit debate, people like you politicising The GFA because you have run out of excuses to overturn Brexit.You should be ****ing ashamed of yourself.....but you wont be,your infantile moral pomposity is skewed only to acknowledge your own bigotry

Yep, definitely miles out of your depth, resorting to this absolute shìte. What a tosser you are. Come back when you've served your country like she has you utter plum.

The GFA is immovable, we signed an agreement. If WE want to change the status quo, WE have to find a solution that doesn't break that agreement.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This is what disgusts me about the Brexit debate, people like you politicising The GFA because you have run out of excuses to overturn Brexit.You should be ****ing ashamed of yourself.....but you wont be,your infantile moral pomposity is skewed only to acknowledge your own bigotry

Desperation.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's a fair question and not a straight forward answer. As yet I've not seen anyone define what a hard border is. After all, try entering mainland UK via any port or airport and you are subject to checks. For me it should be a semi-hard border between NI & Eire. Freight should be pre-registered and checked if the registration doesn't match and normal citizen traffic allowed through unhindered. Normal checks, as currently are in place, used on the mainland.

Thanks for the answer. So you are going for two borders, Ireland/NI and NI/Rest of Britain. It would be interesting to see how you would get Ireland and the DUP on board with this as I suspect they would both say 'it's the worst of both worlds' and block it. I can't see any solution being acceptable to all parties outside of the/a customs union and all that entails.

This issue has been there since before the vote (indeed it was bought up in the campaigning) but it just got kicked into the long grass for as long as possible.