[Politics] Brexit

[Deleted member 22389]

It really isn't.
Have you actually read that article? It basically says "we don't know the figures". Because of rebates being paid and the seriously worrying notion that there are no records of how much we get back. You couldn't make it up. Another example of making decisions without knowing the most fundamental and vital facts. A mess.

"We can be pretty sure about how much cash we put in, but it’s far harder to be sure about how much, if anything, comes back in economic benefits. “There is no definitive study of the economic impact of the UK’s EU membership or the costs and benefits of withdrawal”, as the House of Commons Library says".

Doesn't take away the facts that we pay about 269 million pounds a week to the EU, and we have an open border with the EU. What a fing rip off. We can all see it.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

You can add the millions of pounds funding economic develop, regeneration, education etc provided by the European Social and
Regional Development funds. Maybe also H2020 research funding which means that we are at the cutting edge of technology developments in everything from medicine, defence, artificial intelligence etc. Working on projects which receive this development funding and have contributed to 100s of new businesses created I know at first hand that the government hasn't got the first idea how to fill the gaps soon to be left, to be honest I doubt ministers even know anything about how they work, they change portfolio so often and tend to focus on what makes them look good. Still with us out of the EU we will be free of corrupt MEPs; some of them have more than one job.....no more of that nonsense.

Don't forget the (albeit smaller) Erasmus+ fund that focuses purely on improving education, training and skills development within the Member States. Having worked in Brussels on H2020 & FP7 projects I know just how valued (and therefore successful) British universities and research institutes were regarded in project consortiums. We stand to loose a huge amount of funding at a time when cuts to research by the UK government are the harshest they have been for decades.

 

[The Clamp]

Doesn't take away the facts that we pay about 269 million pounds a week to the EU, and we have an open border with the EU. What a fing rip off. We can all see it.

Come on, you claimed we are being short changed. That's the whole point of your post. But the fact is neither you, I or any official government body knows the figures. You don't even know the exact figure we pay in. Typical of the Brexit campaign and of the leave voters, claiming to know something that actually nobody knows. Do you not feel even the slightest bit conned.
Course you do but you'll never admit it.

 

[drew]

Don't forget the (albeit smaller) Erasmus+ fund that focuses purely on improving education, training and skills development within the Member States. Having worked in Brussels on H2020 & FP7 projects I know just how valued (and therefore successful) British universities and research institutes were regarded in project consortiums. We stand to loose a huge amount of funding at a time when cuts to research by the UK government are the harshest they have been for decades.

Credit where credit is due. At least he now seems to accept that we never did pay £350m a week!

 

[The Clamp]

One of the functions of the EU is to bridge wealth disparity. That's why wealthier countries pay more. That is fair.
The EU did a lot of good in poorer parts of the UK. Places that are really gong to miss out.
If anyone thinks the Tories are going to take the money we pay into the EU and plough it back into our NHS or our community projects your are deluded.
Women's shelters
Day care centres
Counselling
Drug and alcohol treatment
Homeless help
Home care
Pension services
Mental health support
Community projects
Youth projects
Work training schemes

All being slashed and closed down under our government. They have not told us how they will reallocate the money into these vital social services. Because they won't.

 

[beorhthelm]

How much have we paid and how much have we been short changed by?

about £8.5 billion. the link has already been provided, its quite straight forward, we pay in £13bn, get about £4.5bn back in CAP and regional grants, leaves £8.5bn net contribution. The EU cant fund all those projects in poorer member nations without some countries being net contributors, we're largest one after Germany.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

One of the functions of the EU is to bridge wealth disparity. That's why wealthier countries pay more. That is fair.
The EU did a lot of good in poorer parts of the UK. Places that are really gong to miss out.
If anyone thinks the Tories are going to take the money we pay into the EU and plough it back into our NHS or our community projects your are deluded.
Women's shelters
Day care centres
Counselling
Drug and alcohol treatment
Homeless help
Home care
Pension services
Mental health support
Community projects
Youth projects
Work training schemes

All being slashed and closed down under our government. They have not told us how they will reallocate the money into these vital social services. Because they won't.

I'm getting 33 hours a week free child care from sept, that's helps parents get back to work. That's a good thing.

 

[The Clamp]

about £8.5 billion. the link has already been provided, its quite straight forward, we pay in £13bn, get about £4.5bn back in CAP and regional grants, leaves £8.5bn net contribution. The EU cant fund all those projects in poorer member nations without some countries being net contributors, we're largest one after Germany.

Those figures aren't the full story, as the link points out. Nobody knows​ the figure of how much we get back in real terms. You'd be daft to expect to get back pound for pound what we pay in. That's the point.

 

[The Clamp]

I'm getting 33 hours a week free child care from sept, that's helps parents get back to work. That's a good thing.

It certainly is. Funnily enough I was listening to a radio program about the subsidised child care. One problem is that it merely covers childcare itself not the food and all the other sundries nurseries provide. Unless the nurseries can get the parents to pay for such things nurseries will either close or have empty subsidised spaces that they can't afford to fill. Not the best thought out scheme.

 

[beorhthelm]

Those figures aren't the full story, as the link points out. Nobody knows​ the figure of how much we get back in real terms. You'd be daft to expect to get back pound for pound what we pay in. That's the point.

your question was "how much do we pay and how much are we short changed". you're quite right no one has apparently done an official full cost/benefit analysis of membership of the EU, weighing the benefits of tariff free trade, labour movement etc against costs of regulations, compliance etc, borne by business. so you cant say that the benefits outweigh the costs. either way there's a very real, tangible £8.5bn ongoing and only £4.5bn incoming to cover all those development, regeneration funds etc. EU doesn't give us positive fiscal benefit, thats the point.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

It makes it sound like the EU gives us free money, what about the billions that we have already paid in to this system. This country has been short changed.

The reality is that neither of us really knows the bottom line figure for costs/benefits and it was a failing of both sides in the campaign to try and get to these numbers. However, saying that we lose out on balance is nothing like saying that we get ‘nothing’.

The arguments on here are all at a very general level and so I can show you how the value for money situation works in one small area. I manage a service which helps businesses to start and grow. Our core funding comes from the UK government but in recent years we have received funding from the European Regional Development Fund which has enabled us to dramatically increase the services and activities we offer existing and aspiring entrepreneurs in the UK. It is based on 3-4 year contracts with clear targets for jobs created, transparent, reliable and if we don’t hit the targets we are penalised proportionally. We have exceeded all of our targets and changed a lot of lives. Our working assumption is that this funding will end in 2 years.

We know that UK government funding will decrease as it has every year since 2009. Our options are: To close down services. To charge for them which would put them out of reach of many of our disadvantaged users. To bid for funding from agencies like NESTA; usually short-term with extremely high levels of competition. To sell consultancy and training services overseas at a price which enables us to cross-subsidise services for UK users.
I may be a remoaner on here but at work I am trying to make the best of this situation in a politically neutral way..

Yesterday I ran an online course for people outside the EU, including some from countries with human rights records which make Juncker look like Francis of Assisi but needs must and this is a move to develop the last of the options above. My ultimate objective as a manager of a public service is to deliver as much value for each pound of tax-payers money that I can and the arrangement with the EU funding has given us a much better return than seems likely with any of the options above.

Whatever happens will not be dramatic, no one will die, no headlines will be made and local government faces much worse problems. This example doesn’t answer the national plus/minus question I know but it illustrates one example of how this is working out. Apologies for the long post but some detail is needed some times.

 

[The Clamp]

your question was "how much do we pay and how much are we short changed". you're quite right no one has apparently done an official full cost/benefit analysis of membership of the EU, weighing the benefits of tariff free trade, labour movement etc against costs of regulations, compliance etc, borne by business. so you cant say that the benefits outweigh the costs. either way there's a very real, tangible £8.5bn ongoing and only £4.5bn incoming to cover all those development, regeneration funds etc. EU doesn't give us positive fiscal benefit, thats the point.

I think there are valid points and valid concerns on each side. I think a plus of the EU is that our money, whatever percentage, is put back into some brilliant causes in the UK. It's a failing on both sides that this amount and the benefits have not been accurately calculated.
I hope but don't trust that the government, whichever government we see over the next few years, puts our savings back into these causes. If not, while we save money it won't get to the areas that need it.

I view it as akin to paying our taxes. Some will get back more in social services and amenities than others and in theory the better off pay more. But ultimately it's the best system to ensure needs are meet across the UK.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Do you know why this (anonymous ?) person did not feel safe in the UK?

No I don't. It may have been because he was a free-access Bulgarian drug runner who worries that the police are closing in on him. However, it is more likely that he/she is simply a person of foreign or minority origin who feels threatened in some way. Whatever the specific circumstances I am saddened that there seem to be more people in this position than there were a year ago, for the reasons we know.

 

[studio150]

Maastricht treaty will be just a blip in history I fear Brexit will prove to be far more profound for our children and their children

Agree totally and its not just agreeing the tetms of our EU exit but its then unpicking UK legislation to reflect the agreed exit deal. I would expect a raft of legal challenges against the new UK legislation in the coming years. I would also expect to see lots of news stories on the unexpected consequences as some aspects are overlooked.

We then have all these new trade deals we are going to need.
Plus this will not be done quickly given the need to get things right first time. If its rushed or undettaken by people without the right skills and experience it will probably be far more expensive and disadvantageous than if everything went smoothly

 

[JC Footy Genius]

No I don't. It may have been because he was a free-access Bulgarian drug runner who worries that the police are closing in on him. However, it is more likely that he/she is simply a person of foreign or minority origin who feels threatened in some way. Whatever the specific circumstances I am saddened that there seem to be more people in this position than there were a year ago, for the reasons we know.

Thought not. Reading far too much into random statements on blackboards causing your feelings of shame seems a bit self-indulgent/OTT. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[The Clamp]

Thought not. Reading far too much into random statements on blackboards causing your feelings of shame seems a bit self-indulgent/OTT. Whatever floats your boat.

To be fair the sort of person who writes on that kind of board is likely to be more leaning towards "generation snowflake" and probably means it in the sense of they want to feel safe from more right wing attitudes than meaning they want us to be safe from terrorists.

 

[nicko31]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

If Brexit is such a good, solid idea why the bedwetting?

Just seems there's a group of hard right Brexiteers that hate the beeb and the balance it brings. Actually think Channel 4 news (ITN) have scrutinised Brexit even more than the Beeb to be fair.

Of course they would like the whole media to be the Daily Express, thankfully not

 

[The Clamp]

Just seems there's a group of hard right Brexiteers that hate the beeb and the balance it brings. Actually think Channel 4 news (ITN) have scrutinised Brexit even more than the Beeb to be fair.

Of course they would like the whole media to be the Daily Express, thankfully not

Exactly. The impotent threat of "the BBC's future is in doubt" screams of "you'll never work in this town again"!
Pretty pathetic really.

 

[studio150]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

If Brexit is such a good, solid idea why the bedwetting?

Let's hope for the benefit of these MPs that the BBC don't mention the latest inflation figures which are the highest for three and a half years.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

To be fair the sort of person who writes on that kind of board is likely to be more leaning towards "generation snowflake" and probably means it in the sense of they want to feel safe from more right wing attitudes than meaning they want us to be safe from terrorists.

Not sure what probability equations we are using in this mind reading game but as it's Brighton my guesses include a right on activist student type or a visitor from another part of the UK living near that afor mentioned Bulgarian/Romanian drug runner and their associates.