[Politics] Brexit

[JC Footy Genius]

Brexit is a success even before it’s happened

The notion that this has been a uniquely terrible year is now well established. A lot of famous people died (which has obviously never happened before in human history) and the failure of pollsters to identify the populist tsunami on the horizon meant that when the waves hit, in the form of Brexit and the election of Donald Trump, there was astonishment and panic among those who had assumed neither outcome was possible.

The shock has induced at the year’s end something close to despair among the most despondent Remainers, whose warnings about the horrors of Brexit, the impossibility of negotiations and the general inability of Britain to do anything have taken on an almost millenarian tone in recent weeks. One does not need to be hopelessly Panglossian about Brexit to think that the gloom is wildly overdone. Of course Brexit will be challenging. Most things worth doing are.

It is worth it because Britain has chosen to be on the right side of history, at a moment when the pendulum is swinging away from the fixation on supranational solutions and diminishing the role of the nation state. Of course, there must be international co-operation, but all the UK has done in its eccentric, stubborn way is to choose the self-government favoured by countries such as the US, Australia, India, Canada, New Zealand and China.

In such circumstances, for those Britons who voted for Brexit — me included — hearing the EU referendum described as the nadir of a terrible year is baffling. With all due respect to friends who voted differently, for millions of us 2016 was terrific, precisely because Britain voted to leave the EU.

Not only was the referendum campaign, for all its shortcomings, a remarkable exercise in democracy, it also settled a question that has bedevilled British politics for almost a quarter of a century: our role in Europe. That the dispute over sovereignty was restricted until recently to the Conservative Party only demonstrates how detached the Labour Party in England has become from the concerns of its traditional voters on subjects such as control of borders and self-government.

After such a long period of misalignment, there is the opportunity with Brexit for an overdue reconnection between the parties and their voters. There is a renewed interest in finding out what the voters really think. This could catch on.

There are plenty of other reasons to be encouraged by the referendum result and even moderately cheerful about the prospects. Already Brexit is having a positive impact and beginning a process of revival in our shrunken institutions. For decades parliament has been in decline. As it gave away sovereignty, and squandered authority in scandals, it came to be viewed with scepticism and even contempt. In the argument over the rights of parliament to decide on Article 50 — the so-called trigger that begins the countdown to departure from the EU — were the stirrings of an institution waking from a long slumber.

The Brexiteers who complained about the temerity of MPs such as Nick Clegg demanding full scrutiny and votes on such matters missed the point. To watch Mr Clegg, a former Liberal Democrat leader and pro-EU figure of long standing, be reborn as an arch-defender of the rights of parliament to decide its own destiny made for a heartwarming, not to say rather amusing, spectacle. Mr Clegg’s intervention on Article 50 demonstrated that in terms of bolstering the Commons Brexit is already working — and it hasn’t even happened yet.

After the panic by nervous Nellies in the City this summer, the place has started to work out that the business won’t all be moving to Frankfurt, Dublin or Paris
Since then Mr Clegg has overextended himself, inevitably, in seeking to reverse the referendum result. We are told he is joined in this axis by Lord Mandelson and Tony Blair, forming a Brexiteer dream-team that after the Iraq war and financial crash is unlikely to command widespread support.

Meanwhile, the world beyond Europe is increasingly eager to connect with Britain. The Australian high commissioner explained at the weekend why the government in Canberra wants to reach a free trade agreement with the UK that it believes will be pretty straightforward.

After the panic by nervous Nellies in the City this summer, the place has started to work out that the business won’t all be moving to Frankfurt, Dublin or Paris. Labour laws are draconian in France, and the other options are too small. There will be disruption — and some jobs will move — but a global hub such as London will thrive and survive, as it usually does.

There is the not inconsiderable problem of the negotiations to come, of course. The suspicion that a prickly No 10 is handling the situation poorly is confirmed by ministers whispering that effective decision-making on Brexit has all but ground to a halt, thanks to gridlock while departments wait in vain for decisions from Theresa May.

Those day-to-day difficulties do not diminish the worth of the brave decision taken by voters who knew exactly what they were doing. This year the British chose to leave the EU, a flawed organisation in deep trouble thanks to open borders and a currency it invented, against advice, impoverishing many millions in southern Europe. It cannot defend its borders and will not listen to warnings about its profound structural weaknesses. Leaving such a club, while offering to stay on friendly terms if at all possible, should be a cause for modest celebration not doom and gloom.

Merry Christmas, Happy Brexit.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/brexit-is-a-success-even-before-its-happened-tchftxp32

 

[nicko31]

Top work from the European Court of Justice

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/dec/21/eus-highest-court-delivers-blow-to-uk-snoopers-charter

Brexit will help the Tories turn us into a police state

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I do not get this we all voted for different reasons b*llocks. the choice presented was perfectly clear, either you were in or you were out.

Just another pathetic attempt to try and kick Brexit in to the long grass. get over yourselves.. .

You miss the point but I don't mind. Carry on shouting.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

well it is true.
We did know voting to leave The EU meant ending membership of the single market.
Your own remain side knew this as well,they actively campaigned saying it was a bad idea.

why didnt you know what your own side were saying?

Project Fear old chap. Project Fear. Millions of people believed the Leavers' claim that everything Remain said was Project Fear so they assumed we were definitely not leaving the SM.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/brexit-is-a-success-even-before-its-happened-tchftxp32

Personal view of a Brexiter. Nothing wrong with that. We've now had one long article from each side. You pays your money.

 

[brighton fella]

Project Fear old chap. Project Fear. Millions of people believed the Leavers' claim that everything Remain said was Project Fear so they assumed we were definitely not leaving the SM.

Is that all you can come up with..
:
Your attempts now are becoming more and more desperate, as far as the single market is concerned i would leave it at that if i were you.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Is that all you can come up with..
:
Your attempts now are becoming more and more desperate, as far as the single market is concerned i would leave it at that if i were you.

My germ of truth had a coating of irony. Maybe you didn't understand that. Are you American?

 

[The Rivet]

We can all see that the European federalist dream is fracturing. It's insipid and could medically be described as 'prolapsed'. Why do people still support being a member or even a fiscal provider? It's just weird.

 

[brighton fella]

My germ of truth had a coating of irony. Maybe you didn't understand that. Are you American?

No what is ironic is how you (a lefty) can claim to be against giant multinational corporate banks who dictate our very lives and standard of living.. yet feel perfectly happy to give your support to a corrupt EU that is fully supportive and in cohesion with the b*stards.





. ..

 

[cunning fergus]

Top work from the European Court of Justice

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/dec/21/eus-highest-court-delivers-blow-to-uk-snoopers-charter

Brexit will help the Tories turn us into a police state

When I was in Spain, France and Germany this year the number of heavily armed police and soldiers on the streets was palpable.

This is a new situation in my experience, however it would appear that having the Army and heavily armed paramilitary style police skulking about the streets of Europe is deemed to be "reassuring" by Governments.......really?

In short the police state is already here, our lives are being affected by it whether it is security checks at Gatwick or the Amex.

The root cause of European Governments' prying on its citizens and mining its citizens' personal data is not complex, we know exactly why they are doing it even if we dislike it or suspect that they are going further than they need.

These very same European Governments' however pursue the policy madness of entirely open borders to migrants and refugees then maintain freedom of movement with their neighbours within the continent. All the while this continues then ever more security requirements will be required, and if you support that policy, then stop moaning.

It is telling the most basic security provisions for a country to implement to protect its citizens would be to a) robustly secure its borders and b) vigorously police those arriving. However these measures are continuously rejected by European Governments. Those that have died in terrorism in 2016 and recent years would appear to be the price we will have to pay to continue with that mindset.

No wonder people are angry.

 

[beorhthelm]

What a terrible piece of "journalism". It is just all pure opinion of the author. There are zero data to back up the statements made. How can people be allowed to peddle stuff without giving any references or back up their theories?

yes its opinion, its under the "comment" section so you know this. broadsheets have many of them, various columnist putting forth their view. you think Toynbee or other pro-europeans write referenced, backed up pieces?

 

[Wrong-Direction]

No they probably don't and that is just as bad. There should be no opinions in there at all. What gives these people the right to spout random non-backed up opinions to the population over any one else? It is disgusting and only serves to brainwash people.

Sadly people believe everything they read because it's it a newspaper

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

[beorhthelm]

Sadly people believe everything they read because it's it a newspaper

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

doesnt really apply to readers of the Times, Guardian, Telegraph, etc. or they already agree largely with the comments, though some are counter opinions in there too to stir the pot. i think newspapers would be very dull with just dreporting of events, about two pages long as they were once. if you want just basic, unbiased, anodyne reports, subscribe to Associate Press.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

doesnt really apply to readers of the Times, Guardian, Telegraph, etc. or they already agree largely with the comments, though some are counter opinions in there too to stir the pot. i think newspapers would be very dull with just dreporting of events, about two pages long as they were once. if you want just basic, unbiased, anodyne reports, subscribe to Associate Press.

I'd take very dull over missinforming the general public any day

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[beorhthelm]

I'd take very dull over missinforming the general public any day

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

BBC is your best bet yet everyone complains they are biased too. so start a paper or website to inform the public. thats the joy of free press and free market, anyone can start a publication to suit their taste and the public. unfortunatly, most the public would rather have sensationalism, gossip and tittle tattle, than dry accurate reporting of events home and abroad.

 

[Bob'n'weave]

BBC is your best bet yet everyone complains they are biased too. so start a paper or website to inform the public. thats the joy of free press and free market, anyone can start a publication to suit their taste and the public. unfortunatly, most the public would rather have sensationalism, gossip and tittle tattle, than dry accurate reporting of events home and abroad.

Not sure I agree with that. I think the public have gotten used to being fed whatever the press think will sell paper. Newspapers sell paper, not news. If you do come across a well balanced view it is just seen as 'soft' reporting, no zippy headlines, no OMG = no sale.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

No what is ironic is how you (a lefty) can claim to be against giant multinational corporate banks who dictate our very lives and standard of living.. yet feel perfectly happy to give your support to a corrupt EU that is fully supportive and in cohesion with the b*stards.





. ..

I'm afraid that by touching on a subject that I definitely know about and you don't, you're providing an example of someone who likes to present subjective opinions as fact. I shall bear that in mind when considering your future posts. The subject in this case is my politics. You announce that I'm a 'lefty', presumably because you think the Brexit argument is a left-right one. It isn't. Whilst I have complete respect for people such as HT, who is to the left of me on general issues, the fact is that my own politics might be described as centre-centre-right. Ken Clarke'll do for me.

Now, having established my politics, would you like to tell me how old I am?

 

[cunning fergus]

I'm afraid that by touching on a subject that I definitely know about and you don't, you're providing an example of someone who likes to present subjective opinions as fact. I shall bear that in mind when considering your future posts. The subject in this case is my politics. You announce that I'm a 'lefty', presumably because you think the Brexit argument is a left-right one. It isn't. Whilst I have complete respect for people such as HT, who is to the left of me on general issues, the fact is that my own politics might be described as centre-centre-right. Ken Clarke'll do for me.

Now, having established my politics, would you like to tell me how old I am?

That's enlightening.......I always said you were a Tory.

We would have saved a lot of time in the past if you had been as honest then as you are now.

Merry Christmas Margaret.

 

[5ways]

Exactly. Which is why they need to be held to higher standards and stop publishing un-referenced opinion. They should report the facts, explain how various statistics have been arrived at and then leave the reader to form their own opinion about them. All they do is present no data with no explanation but tell the reader what their opinion should be. It is, quite frankly, insulting.

You're free to think for yourself after reading an opinion piece.

 

[brighton fella]

I'm afraid that by touching on a subject that I definitely know about and you don't, you're providing an example of someone who likes to present subjective opinions as fact. I shall bear that in mind when considering your future posts. The subject in this case is my politics. You announce that I'm a 'lefty', presumably because you think the Brexit argument is a left-right one. It isn't. Whilst I have complete respect for people such as HT, who is to the left of me on general issues, the fact is that my own politics might be described as centre-centre-right. Ken Clarke'll do for me.

Now, having established my politics, would you like to tell me how old I am?

Ken Clarke ,, the name says it all, Just as Blair wasn't Labour Clarke isn't tory either. there is no real difference between the pair just like there is hardly any difference between him and that other tory tw@t Heseltine,..a right pair of deluded c*nts if you ask me. both answer to Brussels instead of who they are supposed to. fully paid up c*nts who could not give a t*ss for anyone apart from themselves and their fat juicy pockets,

You consider yourself as being centre centre right.do you not .. and a man who definitely knows his stuff when it comes to politics. . pal who are you trying to kid.., you voted to remain in the European Union didn't you.

I'd guess you to be in your 50's am i right. ?.