[Politics] Brexit

[beorhthelm]

You think this is good?

i think its misleading. couldn't let it pass, theres a lot of manipulation of data going on there, for one thing those stats between 1990 and now when 16-18 yo have to stay in full time education or employment, cannot be directly comparable, and what does "low pay" mean anyway? on the subject of part time there is often mis-direction of the stats, where they dont account for the fewer hours worked and i suspect this is happening here too. are more 16-20yo in low pay because they are doing more part-time work while in education, rather than full time work?

i accept theres issues around "precarious employment", over use of agencies and abuses of employees, but it must also be recognised when people with an agenda are trying to deceive or hide reality. dont ignore the fact from CIPD surveys that most people in zero hours are happy and it suits them.

 

[Baldseagull]

Your analogy is missing the glaringly obvious...Tony wouldn't disclose the game plan to Villa... disclosing the Brexit plan to
Parliament at this stage would be public and therefore would be disclosing it to the EU.
There is plenty of precedent for Government negotiating deals behind closed doors.

Yes, just recently they have done a secret deal with Nissan it seems.

The fact that she is hiding her hand tips a wink that she is prepared to let some form of free movement continue, if it were genuinely a red line, she could get that out now, it would not damage negotiations one bit if she said that and meant it.
What concerns me more, is will UK parliament will be allowed to vote on whether to accept the negotiated deal or not, as the so undemocratic EU council and parliament will.

 

[Mental Lental]

Don't worry lads. Our best man is on the case......

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ministers-boris-johnson-prosecco-claim-brexit

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Don't worry lads. Our best man is on the case......

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ministers-boris-johnson-prosecco-claim-brexit

That whole story is a complete overreaction. Sounds like he was having a private conversation and joking about prosecco and fish and chips. It's pathetic that the extreme papers like the guardian and the Indy and mirror have made up a non story to be some kind of diplomatic incident. The mirror said 'Italy humiliates Boris Johnson blah blah blah'. Absolutely pathetic. There was no humiliation. What planet do they live on. I suppose they have to appeal to their readership though.

 

[Mental Lental]

That whole story is a complete overreaction. Sounds like he was having a private conversation and joking about prosecco and fish and chips. It's pathetic that the extreme papers like the guardian and the Indy and mirror have made up a non story to be some kind of diplomatic incident. The mirror said 'Italy humiliates Boris Johnson blah blah blah'. Absolutely pathetic. There was no humiliation. What planet do they live on. I suppose they have to appeal to their readership though.

To be fair the other side is just as bad. I'd actually say marginally worse in fact. At least there was a kernel of truth to this story.

Unlike some of the nonsense churned out by The Mail and Sun.

 

[vegster]

Am I missing something. What relevance does this have to Brexit as someone else has pointed out it will be at least 2yrs before we leave. I think most have missed pay rises including myself since the banking crash but we are not blaming it on Brexit

Yes, you are missing something. My post is regarding the thread " Is Theresa May out of her depth ? " which has been merged with the Brexit/speculation thread. For clarity Maggie #2 , has said that " Capitalism is not working for many people " and refers to " the people left behind " however, in line with most of the government's aims, she and her cabinet have no policy on how to improve how capitalism works other than to hope employment goes up and that employers suddenly feel benevolent towards their staff.

 

[McTavish]

The plan is to leave the EU. This will come with negotiation. Both sides need to be sitting in a room to discover what is achievable. Your arguments could equally apply to the EU. If there is a negotiation then the outcome is not clear...by definition. So basically think of any Government negotiation with contractors for instance. There will be a range of possible options and the one
selected will be dictated by the negotiation process.
We can though all take a view. It seems clear to me that we will be negotiating access to the single market rather than membership, free movement is up for discussion (see Merkel's speech) and we will be out of the customs union as we will be in control of our tariff policy.
This is uncharted territory for both sides but it is the will of the British people.
Regarding the plumber it is hardly the same. We are not buying anything. We are negotiating and the outcome will be a compromise where both sides are partially happy.
I don't expect you to be happy with this because many people who voted Remain are determined to be unhappy with this process regardless. Anyway, I have tried. Let's agree to disagree as I need to get some sleep.

I don't disagree with most of this. Yes, the UK will want access to the single market, complete free movement is almost certainly not going to happen but some limited form might be acceptable. You are probably right about the Customs Union. This seems fairly clear to both of us so why can't the Government discuss this sort of thing? Why the huge resistance to the involvement of Parliament in this process?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

To be fair the other side is just as bad. I'd actually say marginally worse in fact. At least there was a kernel of truth to this story.

Unlike some of the nonsense churned out by The Mail and Sun.

Most if not all the papers churn their own rubbish out to suit their agenda. This story really is a pointless piece that's just designed to try to make Johnson look like an idiot. I have mixed feelings about Boris, but surely he gives enough ammunition in any case without papers making stuff up?

 

[Mental Lental]

Most if not all the papers churn their own rubbish out to suit their agenda. This story really is a pointless piece that's just designed to try to make Johnson look like an idiot. I have mixed feelings about Boris, but surely he gives enough ammunition in any case without papers making stuff up?

I wouldn't say it was "made up". It does seem overly hyperbolic and the quotes are from EU economists that are bound to paint him in a bad light. But surely he would make a statement refuting that he had said these things if they weren't true.

Wouldn't he?

 

[Soulman]

That whole story is a complete overreaction. Sounds like he was having a private conversation and joking about prosecco and fish and chips. It's pathetic that the extreme papers like the guardian and the Indy and mirror have made up a non story to be some kind of diplomatic incident. The mirror said 'Italy humiliates Boris Johnson blah blah blah'. Absolutely pathetic. There was no humiliation. What planet do they live on. I suppose they have to appeal to their readership though.

The trouble is that people will slate some papers and hang on every word of papers that suit their thinking. Best to be open minded like me.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I wouldn't say it was "made up". It does seem overly hyperbolic and the quotes are from EU economists that are bound to paint him in a bad light. But surely he would make a statement refuting that he had said these things if they weren't true.

Wouldn't he?

I have no doubt that the story is true. However the papers then make up that it's some kind of disastrous humiliation that shows that poor Boris is an unwitting fool. In the context of the conversation, that is simply untrue. Papers need to sell copy so they make stuff up to reinforce their readers misconceptions and make them feel good about themselves.

 

[mikeyjh]

Are you shi1tting me? In business? How do you go about business with someone you're trying to partner with? Set up a meeting for 6 months time but not tell them what you want to talk about or what you expect from the meeting. Part of doing deals and conducting business is establishing and building relationships with those people you want to do business with. Pretending that you have a secret plan is some funked up way of doing business.

Edit - That was in response to post 21,768 from [MENTION=28630]Hastings gull[/MENTION] - How can you possibly be in a position to make such a statement? Because she has not elucidated a plan, does not mean there is no plan. And, seriously, do expect her to reveal her hand in advance of any negotiations? I assume that you are not in business.

 

[mikeyjh]

I'm curious as to why you come to this conclusion. Theresa May has said very clearly that the Government has a plan and will not
disclose that plan before the negotiations. This means she will not confirm or deny any element of the strategy. This is akin to a football manager not disclosing who he will buy and also who he will not buy during the transfer window. He might be accused of being unnecessarily secretive with the latter but if he confirms everyone who will
not be bought then that will by default reveal his hand.
You might disbelieve May when she says she has a plan but that's completely different from interpreting her unwillingness to give
detail as meaning she has no plan.

I don't buy the football match analogy, we need to do a deal with these people, not beat them in to the ground. Complete silence is not the way for us to do a great deal with Europe.

 

[GT49er]

I don't buy the football match analogy, we need to do a deal with these people, not beat them in to the ground. Complete silence is not the way for us to do a great deal with Europe.

I have a car I want to sell. I advertise it on the local rag: "Car for sale, good condition, good runner. £2000. But will accept offers around £1000."

Bloody good way to do business, eh?

 

[mikeyjh]

I have a car I want to sell. I advertise it on the local rag: "Car for sale, good condition, good runner. £2000. But will accept offers around £1000."

Bloody good way to do business, eh?

Another cr@p analogy, we're not trying to sell something, we're trying to create a relationship and a framework that enables the us and Europe to co-exist, to do business, to defend the borders and so on.

If we must use the analogy, what we're actually doing is saying that we may have a car to sell, but we're not sure. And if we do decide to sell, we might tell you at some time in the future what colour it is and how many wheels it has.

 

[studio150]

I have a car I want to sell. I advertise it on the local rag: "Car for sale, good condition, good runner. £2000. But will accept offers around £1000."

Bloody good way to do business, eh?

But if you get £1000 that would be best for Britain as that was the only deal you could get.
No bottom line measure means the best deal for Britain could be the worst deal for Britain if there was a plan to measure it against.
Still £100bn headlines as the cost of Brexit are just stories and can be ignored because we have our country back and we can trade with everyone and anyway that Prosecco is just foreign which we won't miss.

 

[BigGully]

I don't buy the football match analogy, we need to do a deal with these people, not beat them in to the ground. Complete silence is not the way for us to do a great deal with Europe.

She is not stupid, it is totally irrelevant what she would say today, even if you agreed with some announced TM plan, its a waste of her breathe, ultimately she will be judged on what she delivers and thereafter how the economy performs, why would she try and placate you and your mates, which whatever was said wouldnt be enough anyway, it really is a no brainer.

It will keep you in nappies for a few months thats for sure and you will be fed a few snippets, quickly dismissed by you no matter what, but beyond that she and her negotiators will try and deliver something viable, its all about the end game.

 

[Diego Napier]

Tricky one this. I agree that Boris is a loose cannon. However it is a bit rich for European politicians to complain about a robust pre positioning given the comments emanating from many of their colleagues since the vote about making an example of the U.K. to deter others from following the same route. Many Remainers backed this EU approach. Now that Trump has been elected and the EU is feeling squeezed they are being more amenable. Quite why Boris is saying anything though is difficult to understand...

You answered your conclusory musing with your second sentence. Boris is a loose cannon. And an opportunistic buffoon, the government's open-your-mouth-put-your-foot-in-it version of the royal's sadly missed pantomime act Phil the Greek.

Your earlier analogy of a football team is apposite. May has suddenly found herself thrust into the role of manager in charge of a cobbled together rag-bag of a team totally lacking in both team spirit and technical ability, with nearly half the players completely averse to the idea of leaving the league and finding some new teams to play. And as to agreeing on which tactics to employ....

It's lucky that behind the scenes, as always, there's a considerable body of unelected, unaccountable Whitehall bureaucrats with sufficient professional expertise and experience to keep a steady hand on the tiller. To build on the analogy, if Whitehall fails to prevent the current randomly assembled ship of fools from dashing us on the rocks then luckily too, in a few years time, the electorate can distract themselves with their right to cast judgement on the navigational skills of the crew whilst the bureaucrats quietly focus on the more critical task of ensuring the vessel is at least seaworthy.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

she will be judged on what she delivers and thereafter how the economy performs.

She will also be judged on the damage the silence and uncertainty costs the nation and the economy. If there's one thing regular people and business can agree on it's a dislike of uncertainty.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I have a car I want to sell. I advertise it on the local rag: "Car for sale, good condition, good runner. £2000. But will accept offers around £1000."

Bloody good way to do business, eh?

It is if the car is only worth £500.