[Politics] Brexit

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

Bloody hell, I don't often listen to PMQs but thought I'd listen today to hear the 'plan'. There is no plan, May is presiding over a complete shambles, she has nothing and has restorted to many personal attacks but it's completely unable to answer any question regarding the 'plan'. It's all so depressing.

You should have watched the first public Brexit Committee earlier on in the day, it was mostly Gove asking questions you would have hoped he already knew the answers too.

 

[beorhthelm]

But Articles 1 to 8 are the important ones: they're the guiding principles of the European Community (as it was then), all other articles follow on from those eight basic points

and Articles 1-8 amount to the executive summary, there do not contain nearly enough detail or definition for any real legal basis, as you say they are guiding principles. "freedom of movement" means little on its own and i can point to the top of A.3 that mentions a timetable, and the fact that the freedom wasn't practical reality until Schengen was agreed (outside of the EEC/EU institutions, ironically)

 

[vegster]

Bloody hell, I don't often listen to PMQs but thought I'd listen today to hear the 'plan'. There is no plan, May is presiding over a complete shambles, she has nothing and has restorted to many personal attacks but it's completely unable to answer any question regarding the 'plan'. It's all so depressing.

Corbyn is getting better each week at PMQ's, May has no answers other than to bluster and waffle about the " best deal for
Britain "... Even the SNP are scoring points each week now! Huge joy on the Tory side of the house on the employment figures but as usual no answer to the questions involving " Treadmill Families " and the working poor.

 

[nicko31]

More positive news on the employment and wages front today I see. Combined with the surprise fall in the Inflation rate quite a good week then.

"a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000" - HM Treasury

On course to be fastest growing economy in G7 2016, UK unemployment falls to 11 year low - Reality

One thing for certain is its not all doom and gloom but you have to ask yourself where we would have been without Brexit, almost certainly better off.

Then there's the Brexit divorce EU settlement anything between £18 and 80B depending on who you believe, trust me a golden period in coming up for consultants awaits. £10.6B deficit in September, little wonder deficit clearance has been abandoned

Its a classic the way Brexiters go on about EU bureaucracy, if we leave the customs union as Boris has hinted just wait for the red tape

 

[Steve in Japan]

The author is talking rubbish. It takes a few seconds to look up the text of the Treaty of Rome and article 3c states "(c) the abolition, as between Member States, of the obstacles to the free movement of persons, services and capital;"

Absolutely nothing about workers.

Bojo, not for the first time, is talking absolute bollocks

You need to be looking at Article 48 of that Act. To make things simpler I will quote from a pro-EU Organisation "New Europeans" whose mission statement incidentally says

New Europeans is a civil rights organisation which champions freedom of movement, non-discrimination and the principle of solidarity in Europe.


So a pretty committed pro-EU body. The link to the article is here

https://neweuropeans.net/where-do-my-rights-come-eu-citizen

Some excerpts


The Treaty of Rome

The Treaty of Rome establishing the European Economic Community in 1957, referred to four fundamental freedoms of the common market: free movement of goods, services, capital and workers.

Article 48 of the Treaty established the principle of the free movement of workers and outlawed discrimination between workers of the member states (the prohibition of discrimination between nationals of the member states was also set out in Article 7).

The Council of Ministers (comprised of the relevant government ministers of each of the member states) was mandated to adopt measures to facilitate this free movement. Between 1961 and 1986 a number of regulations (applying in the member states) were adopted to this effect. This included Council Regulation 1612/68 in 1968 which removed restrictions on the movement of workers from one member state to another, permitting such movement without the offer of an actual job, and Council Regulation 1251/70 in 1970 on the right of workers to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that state.

Council Regulation 14808/71 in 1971 established the principle that migrant workers from within the Community were eligible for the same social security benefits as workers of their host state. It also allowed for social insurance contributions and social security entitlements to be transferred from one member state to another.

Council Directive 77/486 (requiring implementation in law by the member states) required the children of migrant workers from the Community to be treated equally in terms of access to the state education system of the host state.

The accession of the UK, Ireland and Denmark to the European Community in 1973

The accession of three new member states to the European Community (EC) in 1973, including Denmark and Ireland, as well as the United Kingdom, extended the Community right of free movement to the workers of these member states. Hence, UK workers and those of the other new member states were automatically entitled to work in the original six member states, and workers from these states could take up employment in the new member states.

There were no arrangements in place to delay the application of these rights for a transitional period. However, such transitional arrangements would later be put in place for the Mediterranean enlargements of the 1980s, and the Eastern and Mediterranean island enlargements of the EU in 2004 and 2007.

Single European Act 1986

A more generalised free movement of persons for nationals of the member states within the enlarged European Community was hastened following the Single European Act, which came into force in 1987. The treaty was championed by UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, who wished to see the European customs union developed more fully into a single market, with the removal of internal barriers impeding the free flow of capital, goods, and services. A more generalised free movement of persons was viewed as necessary to realise a genuine single market.

In revising the Treaty of Rome, the new Article 8a required the Community to `progressively establish’ the internal market, which would comprise ‘an area without internal frontiers in which the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital is ensured in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty.’

In 1990 Council Directives 90/364 and 90/365 conferred more general rights of residence in a member state of their choosing to Community nationals provided they had the means to support themselves.

Treaty on European Union (Maastricht Treaty) 1992

The Single European Act unleashed an accelerated drive to economic and monetary union (including the establishment of a single currency) and deeper political co-operation which was reflected in the Treaty on European Union (or Maastricht Treaty) signed in 1992.

In revising the previous treaties, a new Article 8 established European citizenship, bringing together the existing rights already enjoyed by EC citizens including that of free movement, and creating new citizenship rights. These include:

The right of every citizen of the EU to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States (Article 8a)
the right of every EU citizen to stand and vote in municipal and European Parliaments elections (but not national ones) in the member state in which they reside
the right to petition the European Parliament and to submit complaints to the ombudsman
the right to consular/diplomatic representation by any member state in third country.


Have a read. It seems both sides are capable of shouting without knowing the facts.

 

[vegster]

More positive news on the employment and wages front today I see. Combined with the surprise fall in the Inflation rate quite a good week then.

"a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000" - HM Treasury

On course to be fastest growing economy in G7 2016, UK unemployment falls to 11 year low - Reality

The branch of Iceland near me has an A board outside today advertising for staff, £7.41 an hour.. Golden Times eh?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The branch of Iceland near me has an A board outside today advertising for staff, £7.41 an hour.. Golden Times eh?

So you got to take what your given, live within your means because you can't change the system now. And doesn't matter who is running this country, nothing will change.
Just remember there will be plenty of takers for £7.41 per hour, that's probably double or even triple what some migrants would get back in their own country. All Labour have done is created extra competition in the workplace for these types of jobs now. They should never be trusted ever again.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Like the Daily Mail and General Trust, Northern & Shell, Telegraph Media Group, Arron Banks..................

Yes, that's exactly what I mean, it's about the economics. However we were told many times that most global business interests support EU membership. Just wondering what Remainers make of the reasons many large multinational companies are pro EU membership. I would imagine that Tory Remainers fully accept the importance of low
wages and a huge single market with management consultancies/accountants like PWC attempting to support the interests of their powerful clients by fabricating a story about the Government position on Brexit..hey, that's capitalism.
I'm just not sure how left leaning Remainers feel about it.

 

[beorhthelm]

The branch of Iceland near me has an A board outside today advertising for staff, £7.41 an hour.. Golden Times eh?

know its off topic, i'm curious what sort of rate do you think unskilled work should attract?
i dont know when the complaints changed the from "not enough jobs" to "jobs arent good enough/pay enough", but it seems that transition reflects a positive change even if you dont want to accept it.

 

[Gwylan]

and Articles 1-8 amount to the executive summary,

They do not - they are part of the main body of the treaty itself.

There is an executive summary but there's no mention of free movement of people (or goods for that matter). It talks about removing barriers.

The Executive Summary of the Treaty is (in full).

DETERMINED to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples,

DECIDED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action in eliminating the barriers which divide Europe,

DIRECTING their efforts to the essential purpose of constantly improving the living and working conditions of their peoples,

RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee a steady expansion, a balanced trade and fair competition,

ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and by mitigating the backwardness of the less favoured,

DESIROUS of contributing by means of a common commercial policy to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,

INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and overseas countries, and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,

RESOLVED to strengthen the safeguards of peace and liberty by establishing this combination of resources, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts,

HAVE DECIDED to create a European Economic Community and to this end have designated as their plenipotentiaries:

You need to be looking at Article 48 of that Act.

No, as I mentioned above. Article 48 goes into some detail on workers' rights, but Article 48 comes under Section III which is titled "The Free Movement of Persons, Services and Capital", reinforcing what it says in Article 3c.

Section III is all about people: Articles 48 to 50 are about workers but Article 51 is about social security, 51b stating that " that these benefits will be paid to persons resident in the territories of Member States."

And, to make things even clearer, Article 52 is about the establishment of rights, stating that "restrictions on the freedom of establishment of nationals of a Member State in the territory of another Member State shall be progressively abolished in the course of the transitional period. Such progressive abolition shall also extend to restrictions on the setting up of agencies, branches or subsidiaries by nationals of any Member State established in the territory of any Member State.

Freedom of establishment shall include the right to engage in and carry on non-wage-earning activities."

Legal documents are not always clear but the Treaty of Rome is absolutely clear on the provisions that are laid down.

That's not to say that this couldn't be a focus on negotiation. Personally, I think it should be, the Treaty was drawn up at a time of full employment and it was hard to envisage many people wanting to move without a job. You could well argue that it should be redrawn but that's not Johnson was saying. He said that free movement of people has not always been part of the Treaty of Rome when it clearly has

 

[Ernest]

Corbyn smashed May again this week at PMQ's, I bet the Tories regret making the useless poundshop Maggie leader without proper scrutiny.

 

[vegster]

know its off topic, i'm curious what sort of rate do you think unskilled work should attract?
i dont know when the complaints changed the from "not enough jobs" to "jobs arent good enough/pay enough", but it seems that transition reflects a positive change even if you dont want to accept it.

I think in this day and age there is very little " unskilled ' work, certainly in shop work, even the lowliest staff have to " deliver " the highest level of customer service at all times. The minimum wage is a minimum baseline and the living wage should be seen as the norm.

Ask yourself if you could/would work for £ 7.41 an hour and you may answer your own question..

 

[nicko31]

Corbyn smashed May again this week at PMQ's, I bet the Tories regret making the useless poundshop Maggie leader without proper scrutiny.

The Tories are easy meat at the moment

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-impossible-says-eurozone-chief-politics-live

 

[mikeyjh]

You should have watched the first public Brexit Committee earlier on in the day, it was mostly Gove asking questions you would have hoped he already knew the answers too.

I'll take a look, but I fear I'm not going to like what I see :-(

 

[Soulman]

Corbyn smashed May again this week at PMQ's, I bet the Tories regret making the useless poundshop Maggie leader without proper scrutiny.

I think the Tories could put a chimp up against Labour aND still get in with a healthy majority.

 

[Ernest]

I think the Tories could put a chimp up against Labour aND still get in with a healthy majority.

#bonkers

 

[Steve in Japan]

They do not - they are part of the main body of the treaty itself.

There is an executive summary but there's no mention of free movement of people (or goods for that matter). It talks about removing barriers.

The Executive Summary of the Treaty is (in full).

DETERMINED to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples,

DECIDED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action in eliminating the barriers which divide Europe,

DIRECTING their efforts to the essential purpose of constantly improving the living and working conditions of their peoples,

RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee a steady expansion, a balanced trade and fair competition,

ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and by mitigating the backwardness of the less favoured,

DESIROUS of contributing by means of a common commercial policy to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,

INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and overseas countries, and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,

RESOLVED to strengthen the safeguards of peace and liberty by establishing this combination of resources, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts,

HAVE DECIDED to create a European Economic Community and to this end have designated as their plenipotentiaries:



No, as I mentioned above. Article 48 goes into some detail on workers' rights, but Article 48 comes under Section III which is titled "The Free Movement of Persons, Services and Capital", reinforcing what it says in Article 3c.

Section III is all about people: Articles 48 to 50 are about workers but Article 51 is about social security, 51b stating that " that these benefits will be paid to persons resident in the territories of Member States."

And, to make things even clearer, Article 52 is about the establishment of rights, stating that "restrictions on the freedom of establishment of nationals of a Member State in the territory of another Member State shall be progressively abolished in the course of the transitional period. Such progressive abolition shall also extend to restrictions on the setting up of agencies, branches or subsidiaries by nationals of any Member State established in the territory of any Member State.

Freedom of establishment shall include the right to engage in and carry on non-wage-earning activities."

Legal documents are not always clear but the Treaty of Rome is absolutely clear on the provisions that are laid down.

That's not to say that this couldn't be a focus on negotiation. Personally, I think it should be, the Treaty was drawn up at a time of full employment and it was hard to envisage many people wanting to move without a job. You could well argue that it should be redrawn but that's not Johnson was saying. He said that free movement of people has not always been part of the Treaty of Rome when it clearly has

I think my post was crystal clear on how successive Directives and Treaties since the Treaty of Rome have expanded the rights of free movement. Rather than saying "no', you could try reading it. Just a thought.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

i'm curious what sort of rate do you think unskilled work should attract?

Minimum living wage at the very last and a proper contract.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

More positive news on the employment and wages front today I see. Combined with the surprise fall in the Inflation rate quite a good week then.

"a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000" - HM Treasury

On course to be fastest growing economy in G7 2016, UK unemployment falls to 11 year low - Reality

"The number of workers in the UK in precarious positions where they could lose their jobs at short or no notice has grown by almost 2 million in the past decade, as businesses insist on using more self-employed workers and increasingly recruit staff on temporary and zero-hours contracts"

"Two million self-employed people now earn below £8 per hour."

"Companies such as Argos and Tesco use thousands of agency temps. Sainsbury is now using 54 different employment agencies for its temporary warehouse workers. The taxi company Uber and courier firms Hermes and Yodel are among firms relying on 4.7 million “self-employed” workers,"

"Young adults have been hit hardest. The proportion of working 16- to 20-year-olds in low pay rose from 58% in 1990 to 77% in 2015, while the proportion aged 21 to 25 rose from 22% to 40%"

You think this is good?

 

[Two Professors]

"The number of workers in the UK in precarious positions where they could lose their jobs at short or no notice has grown by almost 2 million in the past decade, as businesses insist on using more self-employed workers and increasingly recruit staff on temporary and zero-hours contracts"

"Two million self-employed people now earn below £8 per hour."

"Companies such as Argos and Tesco use thousands of agency temps. Sainsbury is now using 54 different employment agencies for its temporary warehouse workers. The taxi company Uber and courier firms Hermes and Yodel are among firms relying on 4.7 million “self-employed” workers,"

"Young adults have been hit hardest. The proportion of working 16- to 20-year-olds in low pay rose from 58% in 1990 to 77% in 2015, while the proportion aged 21 to 25 rose from 22% to 40%"

You think this is good?

And what is the percentage of unemployed young people across the EU?25%?You think this is better?