[Politics] Brexit negotiation poll

[Baldseagull]

Sticking to the issue in hand....

The problem seems to me to be that Barnier wants to talk about people before trade and Davis want to sort out trade before people.
It could, perhaps, move forward if they were to agree that EU nationals currently in education, employment or retired in the UK can stay indefinitely in return for the same rights being given to UK nationals in the EU.

Given that Brexit is a long term thing, then there should have been a cross-party negotiating team rather that giving to Davis, who is not regarded as an intellectual heavyweight even in the Tory Party.

Personally I think both sides are playing a game of brinkmanship and waiting for the other side to blink.

They have agreed that those here can stay, the sticking points are where the cut off date for arrivals is, (we say anyone arriving before article 50 day, they say anyone arriving before leaving day), and what further rights those people will have, like how long they can leave the country for and still be allowed back, or if they can bring a family member over later etc.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

To quote Sir Michael Caine, 'i'd rather be a poor master than a rich servant'. Not sure how many people you questioned but for me it was about control and direction. WE have little control over many aspects of our lives, decided for us by unelected, faceless beauracrats in Brussels, we never have the opportunity to challenge these edicts and for our politicians to be so for the EU demonstrates that they are quite happy with the light load they are expected to carry. But more importantly and never even metioned in debate is where does the EU see itself going and how much control do they want to grab, as for Barnier, Verhofstadt, Junckers et al, its a personal crusade.

if we were invited to join now how would the country vote:

Greece - Bankrupt, EU bail ouuts used to pay off desperate German and French Banks
Spain - 25% unemployment, a succession crisis
Italy - In much financila trouble even after the EU put a puppet in to govern the country
Germany - Having sucked the industry of Europe dry as it brings back manufacturing plants from abroard and desperately needs immigrant labour to man its factories
Ireland - Losing jobs as companies flee the illegal tax breaks they have been given and now bullied by the EU to pay swingeing fines, oh and a landlocked country to the UK, are we to see a Berling airlift operation to keep the country afloat
Poland - Unhappy at its treament and the abuse of its workers by Germany, a bit of history there
France - as politically unstable as any other country in the EU run by a president who thinks he's Tom Cruise

If we get a no deal we are told no flights will be able to transfer between UK and Europe, that will help the failing European Airlines. My reasons for voting for Brexit were very clear, strange that the pundits, journalists and politicians never concentrat on these points.

I don’t wish to get into another Remainer v Leaver debate. You have some valid points, and some not so valid points in your argument, but your reasoning is sensible enough for voting the way you voted. It at least suggests you’ve sensibly analysed one half of the argument.

However, I was responding to a post that suggested there was an element of racism in *most* Leavers views, and disappointingly that was my experience when discussing the topic in person with Leavers. I questioned or had such debates with, I’d estimate, over 100 different Leavers (I guess you noticed there was a fair few Leavers floating about), whether at parties, with friends/family, friends of friends, people at football, people that I know at work etc etc. And unfortunately the reasoning for voting Leave for all but an absolute minority was immigration (which often was conveyed in rather racist terms), as seen by the quote in my post.

Just to reiterate my point - that doesn’t mean all Leavers were ignorant racists, just that the majority that I personally spoke to about the issues at hand were.

 

[Nixonator]

That has to be the best possible definition of cutting your nose off to spite your face. Why would you want to expose our businesses to tariffs and duties when there's a chance to get a deal that gives us at least some of the advantages of the single market and customs union just to annoy the EU? We caused this mess, they didn't.

 

[Baldseagull]

To quote Sir Michael Caine, 'i'd rather be a poor master than a rich servant'. Not sure how many people you questioned but for me it was about control and direction. WE have little control over many aspects of our lives, decided for us by unelected, faceless beauracrats in Brussels, we never have the opportunity to challenge these edicts and for our politicians to be so for the EU demonstrates that they are quite happy with the light load they are expected to carry. But more importantly and never even metioned in debate is where does the EU see itself going and how much control do they want to grab, as for Barnier, Verhofstadt, Junckers et al, its a personal crusade.

if we were invited to join now how would the country vote:

Greece - Bankrupt, EU bail ouuts used to pay off desperate German and French Banks
Spain - 25% unemployment, a succession crisis
Italy - In much financila trouble even after the EU put a puppet in to govern the country
Germany - Having sucked the industry of Europe dry as it brings back manufacturing plants from abroard and desperately needs immigrant labour to man its factories
Ireland - Losing jobs as companies flee the illegal tax breaks they have been given and now bullied by the EU to pay swingeing fines, oh and a landlocked country to the UK, are we to see a Berling airlift operation to keep the country afloat
Poland - Unhappy at its treament and the abuse of its workers by Germany, a bit of history there
France - as politically unstable as any other country in the EU run by a president who thinks he's Tom Cruise

If we get a no deal we are told no flights will be able to transfer between UK and Europe, that will help the failing European Airlines. My reasons for voting for Brexit were very clear, strange that the pundits, journalists and politicians never concentrat on these points.

They are focused on your points, getting control and changing direction, we were on the up, and we will be changing that direction, and it will not be down to the EU, it will be down to you and the rest of the 52%, so there is your control. What are you grumbling for?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The problem is we have a Government negotiating on the terms of their political party, not for the benefit of the nation. Rather than Davis, there should have been an independent individual appointed to lead the negotiations.

Given that no deal is the likeliest outcome I think a second referendum on whether we jump over the cliff or stay as we were needs to take place as the promises of the Leave campaign are now so far removed from the reality of the situation the likelihood is only maybe 10% of those who voted in the referendum actually voted for this scenario.

It doesn't help when Hammond calls the EU the enemy, and opponents.

https://order-order.com/2017/10/13/hammond-calls-brussels-enemy/

 

[Brighton Mod]

I mean absolutely no disrespect here, but your reason mention here is not very clear. Can you expand upon the aspects of our lives we have no control over?

Are you in the transport industry?

 

[ManOfSussex]

It doesn't help when Hammond calls the EU the enemy, and opponents.

https://order-order.com/2017/10/13/hammond-calls-brussels-enemy/

I thought he was supposed to be a nice Tory like you though?

 

[Brighton Mod]

I don’t wish to get into another Remainer v Leaver debate. You have some valid points, and some not so valid points in your argument, but your reasoning is sensible enough for voting the way you voted. It at least suggests you’ve sensibly analysed one half of the argument.

However, I was responding to a post that suggested there was an element of racism in *most* Leavers views, and disappointingly that was my experience when discussing the topic in person with Leavers. I questioned or had such debates with, I’d estimate, over 100 different Leavers (I guess you noticed there was a fair few Leavers floating about), whether at parties, with friends/family, friends of friends, people at football, people that I know at work etc etc. And unfortunately the reasoning for voting Leave for all but an absolute minority was immigration (which often was conveyed in rather racist terms), as seen by the quote in my post.

Just to reiterate my point - that doesn’t mean all Leavers were ignorant racists, just that the majority that I personally spoke to about the issues at hand were.

Hey, thats fine, thanks for the post.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I thought he was supposed to be a nice Tory like you though?

I'm not a Tory.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'm not a Tory.

I can only apologise unreservedly for saying so. A moment of madness whilst being tired and emotional.. I apologise.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I have. Not one has mentioned immigration. Probably because they'd be embarrassed to appear racist, but there it is.

Disagree. The vast majority of people I know who voted leave cited immigration as the number one factor. Cheap labour pushing their wages down, huge pressure on public services and a benefits system that was being abused (i.e. sending child benefits to Eastern Europe where their kids were still living)

Yes, we all know we need immigration, but since Blair and Brown opened the doors it's been uncontrolled.

As others have said, if Cameron had been able to get a better deal from the EU I honestly think he'd still be PM, and we wouldn't be where we are now.

He was weak pandering to the right wing of his party in calling the referendum in the first place, and the EU never dreamt that the British would vote to leave.

Now that the majority of the country voted for Brexit, the EU clearly want to deter other countries from following suit, and will try to punish the UK.

 

[Eeyore]

I'm a remainer but I'd give this post 10 thumbsup if I could. The EU should bare some of the responsibility for the shambles that is Brexit.

The point is, and I haven't changed my view on this, many in the EU want negotiations to fail as far as they can stomach it. Too many pigs stand to lose too many troughs. Politics always comes before people.

 

[portslade seagull]

The point is, and I haven't changed my view on this, many in the EU want negotiations to fail as far as they can stomach it. Too many pigs stand to lose too many troughs. Politics always comes before people.

And that's all it comes down too. Money money money. The biggest contributor leaving means a massive void in future finances which Frau Merkel will have to plug. Everything else is a sideshow

 

[Bob'n'weave]

I'm a remainer but I'd give this post 10 thumbsup if I could. The EU should bare some of the responsibility for the shambles that is Brexit.

They will indeed. Any 'hard' option for the UK, especially in the area of future EU trade will impact on member states just as much as the UK. Also, with political rumblings in France, Italy and now Spain, the EU is not looking good. I'm not sure what is a more likely scenario, Brexit done and dusted or the Euro turning into confetti before a deal is done. Brexit may just turn into The Great Escape.