[Other Sport] Boxing 🥊 Carini v Khelif.

[Washie]

And then get accused of derailing that thread?

It’s just another thread. You can ignore it. Literally remove it from your screen.

A thread I don’t intend to contribute any further to.

You can spin it any way you wish.

That’s a man. He shouldn’t be fighting women.

I want to know what scientific study you did to come to that conclusion.

 

[Han Solo]

She failed a gender test on the basis that she has an XY chromosome pair. If that's wrong, and she was born female, and is female, then what on earth is there even a discussion for?

From reading up about it...

It seems like this Algerian and some other fighter were banned from the Boxing World Cup on the basis of DNA tests showing that they had XY chromosomes.

Apparently there is no such testing done by the IOC (these days) and every sports federation is left to decide who is or isn't a women and how it should or shouldn't be tested. And currently the International Boxing Association are banned by the IOC due to being corrupt, so there's some kind of temporary committe or something running the boxing at the Olympics.

You'd think if there was nothing in that DNA test that stopped the boxers from the World Cup yesteryear, they should have appealed the decisions and probably won a bag of money and some justice. But they didn't.

 

[Triggaaar]

There are more then just XY and XX chromosomes. There is XXY and XO. XO is usually with a missing sexual chromosome and can go undetected.

While that's interesting, I'm not sure what it has to do with my post that you quoted: "She failed a gender test on the basis that she has an XY chromosome pair."

What relevance is it that some people may have XO chromosome pairs? Does she have that? What are you claiming that she has?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Poor by the IOC. This is a bloke beating up women.

 

[Washie]

While that's interesting, I'm not sure what it has to do with my post that you quoted: "She failed a gender test on the basis that she has an XY chromosome pair."

What relevance is it that some people may have XO chromosome pairs? Does she have that? What are you claiming that she has?

Because Swyer syndrome exists in which it only affects 1 80000 people. Women can be born with an X and Y chromosome.

 

[Triggaaar]

It seems like this Algerian and some other fighter were banned from the Boxing World Cup on the basis of DNA tests showing that they had XY chromosomes.

Apparently there is no such testing done by the IOC (these days) and every sports federation is left to decide who is or isn't a women and how it should or shouldn't be tested

Blimey.

What could possibly go wrong?

Oh, a young woman could get battered in the head by a strong man, and suffer brain damage. Yeah, but apart from that, what could go wrong? *

* Please note that I am not suggesting Khelif is a man (strong or not), I am suggesting that having no specific rules in place that prevent men and women boxing against each other seems to me like a recipe for disaster.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Personally I think it's a bigger topic than that, but if the mods want it in the Olympic thread, I'm sure they'll put it there.

In what respect?

To the best of anyone's knowledge:

1. She was born female, in the terms that most of us would understand.
2. She hasn't undergone surgery. to change her sex.
3. She has always fought as Female

If you want to discuss the discrepancies between the classifications between IOC and IBF then feel free, but that isn't a particularly big topic.

 

[Triggaaar]

Because Swyer syndrome exists in which it only affects 1 80000 people. Women can be born with an X and Y chromosome.

Genuine question: If they have an X and Y chromosome, what is it that makes them a woman, and not a man?

 

[Simster]

Poor by the IOC. This is a bloke beating up women.

Whether that is true or not depends on your definition of a bloke. But given she is a biological female with the physical advantages of a male, it is shocking that the IOC don't have the appropriate tests that make the boxing a mockery.

To be honest, boxing needs to get it's house in order in many ways. The judging has been shocking in several bouts. How come the diving, gymnastics, BMXing etc can all judge without too much controversy and not arrive at blatantly unfair results?

 

[Washie]

Genuine question: If they have an X and Y chromosome, what is it that makes them a woman, and not a man?

They can give birth?

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Genuine question: If they have an X and Y chromosome, what is it that makes them a woman, and not a man?

The usual way these things are decided at Birth.....

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Someone was going to post a thread on this, it's got BINFEST written all over it.

EFA

 

[Triggaaar]

In what respect?

The general issue of people with some male attributes (eg, a Y chromosome and higher testosterone levels than females generally have) competing against females who don't have those attributes, and therefore aren't as strong.

To the best of anyone's knowledge:

1. She was born female, in the terms that most of us would understand.

Fair enough - what are those terms? Do you mean she was born with a womb?

 

[Hugo Rune]

She failed a gender test on the basis that she has an XY chromosome pair. If that's wrong, and she was born female, and is female, then what on earth is there even a discussion for?

Unfortunately, life is just not this simple. There is a lot of grey. Where does the black end and the white begin?

More Women Than Expected Are Genetically Men - Novo Nordisk Fonden

BY MORTEN BUSCH Sex chromosomes usually determine whether you are female or male. Women are XX. Men are XY. However, genetically, a few women are actually men. They grow up as women with a woman’s body, and most only discover well into puberty that they are different. Danish researchers map for...

novonordiskfonden.dk

The amateur boxing association got their tests right in my opinion. I imagine the IOC just need a female passport and a female body to approve participation. They should do the same tests as the boxing associations.

 

[beorhthelm]

maybe controversial point being over looked, Carini didn't put up any guard and took a hit she didnt like, bailed out. apparently said it hurt, my understand is that does happen with boxing.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

They can give birth?

Not necessarily.
This really comes down to the whole concept that sex is not actually binary.
In the old days, the concept of hermaphrodites was something we were aware of, but little else was known other than "it happens".

It seems there are many versions of this.
There are reported examples of athletic champions of the past, who had a natural physical advantage.

This particular story is being plugged into the zeitgeist and is being portrayed as a man attacking a woman..
In any other era, this would have happened without the furore surrounding this particular case.

 

[Triggaaar]

Unfortunately, life is just not this simple. There is a lot of grey. Where does the black end and the white begin?

More Women Than Expected Are Genetically Men - Novo Nordisk Fonden

BY MORTEN BUSCH Sex chromosomes usually determine whether you are female or male. Women are XX. Men are XY. However, genetically, a few women are actually men. They grow up as women with a woman’s body, and most only discover well into puberty that they are different. Danish researchers map for...

novonordiskfonden.dk

That's interesting:
"Sex chromosomes usually determine whether you are female or male. Women are XX. Men are XY. However, genetically, a few women are actually men. They grow up as women with a woman’s body, and most only discover well into puberty that they are different. Danish researchers map for the first time how many women are genetically men. The proportion was higher than expected."

So they don't know that they have elements that are genetically male until they hit puberty. Ok. But then they do. And women who go through puberty with some male genes are going to be stronger and faster than women who only have female genes. This gives them a huge advantage in sport.

Personally I think women who have don't have that advantage, should not be able to compete in sport against women who do have that advantage.

 

[Triggaaar]

They can give birth?

Ok. So can Khelif give birth?

 

[Washie]

Not necessarily.
This really comes down to the whole concept that sex is not actually binary.
In the old days, the concept of hermaphrodites was something we were aware of, but little else was known other than "it happens".

It seems there are many versions of this.
There are reported examples of athletic champions of the past, who had a natural physical advantage.

This particular story is being plugged into the zeitgeist and is being portrayed as a man attacking a woman..
In any other era, this would have happened without the furore surrounding this particular case.

Oh i completely understand that, just pointing out that things like Swyer syndrom exists, the only thing that differentiates them from other women is their chromosome, thats it.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

The general issue of people with some male attributes (eg, a Y chromosome and higher testosterone levels than females generally have) competing against females who don't have those attributes, and therefore aren't as strong.




Fair enough - what are those terms? Do you mean she was born with a womb?

She was born with female organs - I don't know the precise nature of her condition.
And for the first few hours of reading about this story, I fell for the implication that she had transitioned at some point, possibly for sporting advantage.

This is not the case.

Boxing is littered with champions who had physical advantages.
Some great athletes have unique attributes.

The issue here, is the discrepancy between IOC and IBF.
The IBF rightly (IMO) acknowledge that this particular physical advantage, poses a risk to other competitors.

There is also another factor in this story, Khelif isn't really that good.
It's not like she has a string of gold medals, from smacking all and sundry into the ground.

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