[Football] Bong knockers

[dazzer6666]

His pass rate at 75% is better than the team overall and you think his passing is often woeful. How does that work?

I genuinely don’t know............I think he makes a lot of simple sideways passes to the CBs......but when he tries a forward pass, he seems to **** it up.......

 

[piersa]

So which PL left backs outside the top six is he better than?

I'd pick Ward, Baines, Chilwell, Bertrand to name four that I would put ahead of him and I'm sure there are others.

along with, Van annholt, digne, baines, cresswell, bernardo et al. They are the ones that immediately spring to mind. There will be others.

 

[West Upper Seagull]

Every week it’s the same. Everyone saying oh he made a couple of mistakes today but generally he’s really good. If we’d lost 2-0 today and conceded both the opportunities he served up on a plate this thread would read very different. Getting away with it at the moment.

Spot on ! His distribution is consistently poor and that was magnified by those 2 chances he gifted Newcastle on a plate. Most other teams would have punished us for that.

 

[seagull winners]

I totally agree. Last season he was rated one of the best full backs in the premier league and at one stage led the stats for least beat full back. Agreed not his best game at Newcastle but considering the provocation he has had to put up with to me he is still our second best defender after Lewis Dunk. Please look at recording and see when he hesitated to kick the ball. Normally Jose makes himself available and twice on Saturday he did not which makes Gaetan look worse than he was when he has no one to pass to, but maybe Row Z was a better option?

 

[Super Steve Earle]

So which PL left backs outside the top six is he better than?

I'd pick Ward, Baines, Chilwell, Bertrand to name four that I would put ahead of him and I'm sure there are others.

Baines is regarded as 'past it' by all accounts of Everton fans and can't buy a start at the moment. The Burnley defence is no benchmark (Ward) despite a choice of three England keepers and a England centre back. Bertrand is decent going forward and Chilwell is having the season of his life.

But I hardly think picking those four as all being better than Bong is going to fly.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Only saw the highlights these showed two incidents where Gaeton got it wrong big time and as has been said we would have been punished if they had been a better team. If we are to stay and progress in the PL we need for him to improve or we have to move on. Interestingly there have been a couple of retro videos on facebook this week and it was Bong that provided the assist, one of those was a very neat ball for Zamora to score against Leeds. I can't see him doing that now.

 

[erkan]

Why should we not be talking about areas we could improve? We’re not plucky little Brighton any more and just because were enjoying an amazing time, doesn’t mean we all sit about waiting for it all to go tits up. I’ve never looked but could guarantee you there are threads on Man City, Liverpool, probably even Barcelona forums where fans talk about getting better players in for certain positions.

Fair enough. Unless there is a really, really, good reason I favour being 100% supportive of our players.

 

[jamie the seagull]

His pass rate at 75% is better than the team overall and you think his passing is often woeful. How does that work?

The statistics include his pass's to the other team.

 

[drew]

I totally agree. Last season he was rated one of the best full backs in the premier league and at one stage led the stats for least beat full back. Agreed not his best game at Newcastle but considering the provocation he has had to put up with to me he is still our second best defender after Lewis Dunk. Please look at recording and see when he hesitated to kick the ball. Normally Jose makes himself available and twice on Saturday he did not which makes Gaetan look worse than he was when he has no one to pass to, but maybe Row Z was a better option?

Have you got any links to that support that comment?

 

[piersa]

Have you got any links to that support that comment?

fwiw he was rated 24th of anyone who played as a lb last season making more than 10 appearances. Top class.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2017-2018

 

[Acker79]

The problems with this debate are similar problems to the #blamestockdale debate.

Some people don't want to like Bong. They will ignore most or even any of the good he goes, and focus on the bad. Not just focus on the bad, will emphasise it and dress it up as worse than any error any other player on the pitch makes (or they allow the positive contribution of said other players to make up for their mistakes). His poor final ball is worse than the final ball of any of our wingers. Wingers who haven't exactly been terrorising defences with their pinpoint crossing.They expect him to make mistakes, they know they want to talk about how bad he is so they only make mental notes of all his negative contributions.

On the other side, some people refuse to acknowledge he even makes mistakes - some because they don't believe it's possible to be a fan and say something that isn't 100% positive; some because they are trying to compensate for what they see as unfair targetting of a player. They don't allow a nuanced discussion that notes his mistakes without grouping said critique in with the label 'scapegoating'. They are looking to defend him so over-egg his positive contributions, and look at other players for why his positive contributions weren't more positive.

Generally the people that fall somewhere between these groups, those that acknowledge his negative and positive contributions without overemphasising either tend to get overlooked (or grouped as scapegoater/ostrich depending on who responds).

For me it's about perspective and expectations. We are not a multi-billion pound club vying for the world's best players. We're a comparatively small club in their second ever year in the premier league. Whoever we can afford and attract to play for us is going to have errors in them, will lack something that makes them an great all round player and rely on their teammates to cover for them at times. So I don't expect near perfection of Bong or any of the players. There will be mistakes. Some will cost us, some won't. I can lose myself in worry about 'what might have been' with a mistake, or I can relax and focus on another win/clean sheet. When he (or any of our players) makes a mistake my concern isn't the potential of the mistake, it's the actuality. Otherwise we'd have to start looking at every time Dunk or Duffy clear it - did it go out of play? Damnit we've just gifted them a chance to score from a throw-in/corner routine! That was potentially very costly. Everything in football, even textbook 'put it in row z' type defensive plays, can be potentially dangerous. I just don't have the energy to dedicate to being that negative. We won 1-0. His "potentially costly error" were "not costly" errors, so I'm not going to lose sleep over them, or damn him for them.

 

[Weststander]

The problems with this debate are a similar problems to the #blamestockdale debate.

Some people don't want to like Bong. They will ignore most or even any of the good he goes, and focus on the bad. Not just focus on the bad, will emphasise it and dress it up as worse than any error any other player on the pitch makes (or allow the positive contribution of said other players to make up for their mistakes). His poor final ball is worse than the final ball of any of our wingers. Wingers who haven't exactly been terrorising defences with their pinpoint crossing.They expect him to make mistakes, they know they want to talk about how bad he is so they make mental notes of all his negative contributions.

On the other side, some people refuse to acknowledge he even makes mistakes - some because they don't believe it's possible to be a fan and say something that isn't 100% positive; some because they are trying to compensate for what they see as unfair targetting of a player. They don't allow a nuanced discussion that notes his mistakes without grouping said critique in with the label 'scapegoating'. They are looking to defend him so over-egg his positive contributions, and look at other players for why his positive contributions weren't more positive.

Generally the people that fall somewhere between these groups, those that acknowledge his negative and positive contributions without overemphasising either tend to get overlooked (or grouped as scapegoater/ostrich depending on who responds.

For me it's about perspective and expectations. We are not a multi-billion pound club via for the world's best players. We're a comparatively small club in their second ever year in the premier league. Whoever we can afford and attract to play for us is going to have errors in them, will lack something that makes them an great all round player and rely on their teammates to cover for them at times. So I don't expect near perfection of Bong or any of the players. There will be mistakes. Some will cost us, some won't. I can lose myself in worry about 'what might have been' with a mistake, or I can relax and focus on another win/clean sheet. When he (or any of our players) makes a mistake my concern isn't the potential of the mistake, it's the actuality. Otherwise we'd have to start looking at every time Dunk or Duffy clear it - did it go out of play? Damnit we've just gifted them a chance to score from a throw-in/corner routine! That was potentially very costly. Everything in football, even textbook 'put it in row z' type defensive plays, can be potentially dangerous. I just don't have the energy to dedicate to being that negative. We won 1-0. His "potentially costly error" were "not costly" errors, so I'm not going to lose sleep over them, or damn him for them.

End of thread?

 

[dazzer6666]

End of thread?

This.

 

[NooBHA]

The problems with this debate are similar problems to the #blamestockdale debate.

Some people don't want to like Bong. They will ignore most or even any of the good he goes, and focus on the bad. Not just focus on the bad, will emphasise it and dress it up as worse than any error any other player on the pitch makes (or they allow the positive contribution of said other players to make up for their mistakes). His poor final ball is worse than the final ball of any of our wingers. Wingers who haven't exactly been terrorising defences with their pinpoint crossing.They expect him to make mistakes, they know they want to talk about how bad he is so they only make mental notes of all his negative contributions.

On the other side, some people refuse to acknowledge he even makes mistakes - some because they don't believe it's possible to be a fan and say something that isn't 100% positive; some because they are trying to compensate for what they see as unfair targetting of a player. They don't allow a nuanced discussion that notes his mistakes without grouping said critique in with the label 'scapegoating'. They are looking to defend him so over-egg his positive contributions, and look at other players for why his positive contributions weren't more positive.

Generally the people that fall somewhere between these groups, those that acknowledge his negative and positive contributions without overemphasising either tend to get overlooked (or grouped as scapegoater/ostrich depending on who responds).

For me it's about perspective and expectations. We are not a multi-billion pound club vying for the world's best players. We're a comparatively small club in their second ever year in the premier league. Whoever we can afford and attract to play for us is going to have errors in them, will lack something that makes them an great all round player and rely on their teammates to cover for them at times. So I don't expect near perfection of Bong or any of the players. There will be mistakes. Some will cost us, some won't. I can lose myself in worry about 'what might have been' with a mistake, or I can relax and focus on another win/clean sheet. When he (or any of our players) makes a mistake my concern isn't the potential of the mistake, it's the actuality. Otherwise we'd have to start looking at every time Dunk or Duffy clear it - did it go out of play? Damnit we've just gifted them a chance to score from a throw-in/corner routine! That was potentially very costly. Everything in football, even textbook 'put it in row z' type defensive plays, can be potentially dangerous. I just don't have the energy to dedicate to being that negative. We won 1-0. His "potentially costly error" were "not costly" errors, so I'm not going to lose sleep over them, or damn him for them.

I think fans too often look at individuals and try to give individual performances a rating 1 to 10 - Perhaps people shuld look a bit deeper and ask themselves. ''What has that individual been asked or told to do to contribute to a team performance before they judge them individually.

 

[sydney]

LASCELLES dropped a clanger at the other end too.

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

The problems with this debate are similar problems to the #blamestockdale debate.

Some people don't want to like Bong. They will ignore most or even any of the good he goes, and focus on the bad. Not just focus on the bad, will emphasise it and dress it up as worse than any error any other player on the pitch makes (or they allow the positive contribution of said other players to make up for their mistakes). His poor final ball is worse than the final ball of any of our wingers. Wingers who haven't exactly been terrorising defences with their pinpoint crossing.They expect him to make mistakes, they know they want to talk about how bad he is so they only make mental notes of all his negative contributions.

On the other side, some people refuse to acknowledge he even makes mistakes - some because they don't believe it's possible to be a fan and say something that isn't 100% positive; some because they are trying to compensate for what they see as unfair targetting of a player. They don't allow a nuanced discussion that notes his mistakes without grouping said critique in with the label 'scapegoating'. They are looking to defend him so over-egg his positive contributions, and look at other players for why his positive contributions weren't more positive.

Generally the people that fall somewhere between these groups, those that acknowledge his negative and positive contributions without overemphasising either tend to get overlooked (or grouped as scapegoater/ostrich depending on who responds).

For me it's about perspective and expectations. We are not a multi-billion pound club vying for the world's best players. We're a comparatively small club in their second ever year in the premier league. Whoever we can afford and attract to play for us is going to have errors in them, will lack something that makes them an great all round player and rely on their teammates to cover for them at times. So I don't expect near perfection of Bong or any of the players. There will be mistakes. Some will cost us, some won't. I can lose myself in worry about 'what might have been' with a mistake, or I can relax and focus on another win/clean sheet. When he (or any of our players) makes a mistake my concern isn't the potential of the mistake, it's the actuality. Otherwise we'd have to start looking at every time Dunk or Duffy clear it - did it go out of play? Damnit we've just gifted them a chance to score from a throw-in/corner routine! That was potentially very costly. Everything in football, even textbook 'put it in row z' type defensive plays, can be potentially dangerous. I just don't have the energy to dedicate to being that negative. We won 1-0. His "potentially costly error" were "not costly" errors, so I'm not going to lose sleep over them, or damn him for them.

Sorry were you talking about Bong or Politics?

 

[bobzam]

Could have lost us the game in opening few minutes.... Ryan saved him and us.... Bong is not good enough, simple as that. If you’re looking at our starting XI he is the weak link. If you want to improve our team, he’s the obvious one. He may get himself into a decent position but then he makes terrible decisions. Like the one on sat, like allowing the soton striker a free unchallenged header from just 6yrds. Like the penalty he gave away recently and so on.... he’s a championship player enjoying his time in premier league but will either get replaced in Jan or next summer. It can’t come soon enough as we aim to continually grow in this division.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

The problems with this debate are similar problems to the #blamestockdale debate.

Some people don't want to like Bong. They will ignore most or even any of the good he goes, and focus on the bad. Not just focus on the bad, will emphasise it and dress it up as worse than any error any other player on the pitch makes (or they allow the positive contribution of said other players to make up for their mistakes). His poor final ball is worse than the final ball of any of our wingers. Wingers who haven't exactly been terrorising defences with their pinpoint crossing.They expect him to make mistakes, they know they want to talk about how bad he is so they only make mental notes of all his negative contributions.

On the other side, some people refuse to acknowledge he even makes mistakes - some because they don't believe it's possible to be a fan and say something that isn't 100% positive; some because they are trying to compensate for what they see as unfair targetting of a player. They don't allow a nuanced discussion that notes his mistakes without grouping said critique in with the label 'scapegoating'. They are looking to defend him so over-egg his positive contributions, and look at other players for why his positive contributions weren't more positive.

Generally the people that fall somewhere between these groups, those that acknowledge his negative and positive contributions without overemphasising either tend to get overlooked (or grouped as scapegoater/ostrich depending on who responds).

For me it's about perspective and expectations. We are not a multi-billion pound club vying for the world's best players. We're a comparatively small club in their second ever year in the premier league. Whoever we can afford and attract to play for us is going to have errors in them, will lack something that makes them an great all round player and rely on their teammates to cover for them at times. So I don't expect near perfection of Bong or any of the players. There will be mistakes. Some will cost us, some won't. I can lose myself in worry about 'what might have been' with a mistake, or I can relax and focus on another win/clean sheet. When he (or any of our players) makes a mistake my concern isn't the potential of the mistake, it's the actuality. Otherwise we'd have to start looking at every time Dunk or Duffy clear it - did it go out of play? Damnit we've just gifted them a chance to score from a throw-in/corner routine! That was potentially very costly. Everything in football, even textbook 'put it in row z' type defensive plays, can be potentially dangerous. I just don't have the energy to dedicate to being that negative. We won 1-0. His "potentially costly error" were "not costly" errors, so I'm not going to lose sleep over them, or damn him for them.

I'd be more positive about your second group of people who choose not to be pointlessly negative about our players. I don't think most of them are much different to your own more "nuanced" (hate that word...) stance.

 

[Bodian]

The problems with this debate are similar problems to the #blamestockdale debate.

Some people don't want to like Bong. They will ignore most or even any of the good he goes, and focus on the bad. Not just focus on the bad, will emphasise it and dress it up as worse than any error any other player on the pitch makes (or they allow the positive contribution of said other players to make up for their mistakes). His poor final ball is worse than the final ball of any of our wingers. Wingers who haven't exactly been terrorising defences with their pinpoint crossing.They expect him to make mistakes, they know they want to talk about how bad he is so they only make mental notes of all his negative contributions.

On the other side, some people refuse to acknowledge he even makes mistakes - some because they don't believe it's possible to be a fan and say something that isn't 100% positive; some because they are trying to compensate for what they see as unfair targetting of a player. They don't allow a nuanced discussion that notes his mistakes without grouping said critique in with the label 'scapegoating'. They are looking to defend him so over-egg his positive contributions, and look at other players for why his positive contributions weren't more positive.

Generally the people that fall somewhere between these groups, those that acknowledge his negative and positive contributions without overemphasising either tend to get overlooked (or grouped as scapegoater/ostrich depending on who responds).

For me it's about perspective and expectations. We are not a multi-billion pound club vying for the world's best players. We're a comparatively small club in their second ever year in the premier league. Whoever we can afford and attract to play for us is going to have errors in them, will lack something that makes them an great all round player and rely on their teammates to cover for them at times. So I don't expect near perfection of Bong or any of the players. There will be mistakes. Some will cost us, some won't. I can lose myself in worry about 'what might have been' with a mistake, or I can relax and focus on another win/clean sheet. When he (or any of our players) makes a mistake my concern isn't the potential of the mistake, it's the actuality. Otherwise we'd have to start looking at every time Dunk or Duffy clear it - did it go out of play? Damnit we've just gifted them a chance to score from a throw-in/corner routine! That was potentially very costly. Everything in football, even textbook 'put it in row z' type defensive plays, can be potentially dangerous. I just don't have the energy to dedicate to being that negative. We won 1-0. His "potentially costly error" were "not costly" errors, so I'm not going to lose sleep over them, or damn him for them.

Good post. When teams are attacking down their right, I don't particularly worry that Bong is going to make a mistake. His two at Newcastle were, in my view, the exceptions that prove the rule - they stood out because normally he's pretty solid in defence. At the other end though - as soon as he gets in a crossing position, I just assume it will go to the first defender, and it generally does.

But this is for the team and CH to sort out. You can't necessarily turn a defender into a top crosser of the ball - but you could try and instil in the team some sort of awareness that if Bong is on the wing, someone should drop short and behind for him to put the ball to who can then cross decently. His team-mates must know he's not likely to ping a super ball into the box, so why put him through to try yet again?

 

[Moshe Gariani]

Good post. When teams are attacking down their right, I don't particularly worry that Bong is going to make a mistake. His two at Newcastle were, in my view, the exceptions that prove the rule - they stood out because normally he's pretty solid in defence. At the other end though - as soon as he gets in a crossing position, I just assume it will go to the first defender, and it generally does.

But this is for the team and CH to sort out. You can't necessarily turn a defender into a top crosser of the ball - but you could try and instil in the team some sort of awareness that if Bong is on the wing, someone should drop short and behind for him to put the ball to who can then cross decently. His team-mates must know he's not likely to ping a super ball into the box, so why put him through to try yet again?

I think you underestimate the difficulty of crossing into a box that usually has one Albion player and five defenders. The percentage option under those circumstances is to hit the most potentially dangerous ball, which is a lowish one heading for the six yard box, and hope for the best in terms of it being missed by the first defender.... Gaetan is superb at consistently making this decision and playing this ball.