Bolton £163 million in debt (!)

[Creaky]

It wouldn't stand up in court, football clubs are companies and therefore have a separate legal identity to their shareholders.

So do many financial companies but the directors can be penalised as individuals by the FSA - simply requires appropriate legislation.

What would happen if for example Bolton were promoted to the EPL and a fine imposed on them by the League but the club were simply unable to pay it?

 

[El Presidente]

So do many financial companies but the directors can be penalised as individuals by the FSA - simply requires appropriate legislation.

What would happen if for example Bolton were promoted to the EPL and a fine imposed on them by the League but the club were simply unable to pay it?

Why should the government introduce legislation making directors of football clubs liable for the debts of their clubs? The FSA are a joke, most of their prosecutions against individuals collapse, and so they tend to fine institutions rather than individuals. If you think the blazers at the FA have either the inclination or ability to prosecute individual club directors you are being a bit optimistic IMO.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

What would happen if for example Bolton were promoted to the EPL and a fine imposed on them by the League but the club were simply unable to pay it?

As it currently stands Bolton would stick two fingers up at the FL and say "we're in the PL now , go and do one"

 

[Creaky]

Why should the government introduce legislation making directors of football clubs liable for the debts of their clubs? The FSA are a joke, most of their prosecutions against individuals collapse, and so they tend to fine institutions rather than individuals. If you think the blazers at the FA have either the inclination or ability to prosecute individual club directors you are being a bit optimistic IMO.

I'm sure you are right and in any case the club chairmen would never vote for such a proposal - as such I accept it is a non-starter.

Doesn't mean mind you that the current FFP system is by any means FAIR.

 

[Creaky]

As it currently stands Bolton would stick two fingers up at the FL and say "we're in the PL now , go and do one"

Not really a matter of 'sticking two fingers up' at anyone - if the club simply hasn't got the money, which it certainly wouldn't have having run up huge losses, then it can't pay a fine even if it wanted to.

FFP is the ideal way to drive clubs into administration.

 

[El Presidente]

As it currently stands Bolton would stick two fingers up at the FL and say "we're in the PL now , go and do one"

Agreed, I'm sure there are firms of lawyers already rubbing their £2,000 an hour hands at the prospect of taking the FL to court over whether the FFP tax is enforceable for a promoted club.

We've already seen a big climbdown by the FL in relation to the tax, which was originally going to be distributed to other FL clubs, and which now mysteriously is going to be donated to charity.

Watch this space for the first challenge....

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As it currently stands Bolton would stick two fingers up at the FL and say "we're in the PL now , go and do one"

...and when they get relegated again and apply for their FL license the FL can say pay or "do one."

 

[Creaky]

...and when they get relegated again and apply for their FL license the FL can say pay or "do one."

And the EPL turn round and say fine, we won't relegate anyone!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Agreed, I'm sure there are firms of lawyers already rubbing their £2,000 an hour hands at the prospect of taking the FL to court over whether the FFP tax is enforceable for a promoted club.

We've already seen a big climbdown by the FL in relation to the tax, which was originally going to be distributed to other FL clubs, and which now mysteriously is going to be donated to charity.

Watch this space for the first challenge....

I have said before that I do not think a legal challenge will succeed. Why don't individual clubs challenge every other rule they vote on which they do not like?

 

[El Presidente]

I have said before that I do not think a legal challenge will succeed. Why don't individual clubs challenge every other rule they vote on which they do not like?

QPR and Bolton didn't vote on the rules as they were PL clubs at the time. A lot will depend on the extent of the fine as to whether it is worth a legal gamble.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

And the EPL turn round and say fine, we won't relegate anyone!

For an individual club which isn't in the PL anymore? I cannot see it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

QPR and Bolton didn't vote on the rules as they were PL clubs at the time. A lot will depend on the extent of the fine as to whether it is worth a legal gamble.

True. But they signed up to the basic FL completion rules upon accepting their license. I'm sure it is worth a gamble but I, and other much more qualified people, just cannot see how it will succeed.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

QPR and Bolton didn't vote on the rules as they were PL clubs at the time. A lot will depend on the extent of the fine as to whether it is worth a legal gamble.

Also. There was a similar discussion and people suggesting legal action about relegation/points deduction for administration. Nothing came of this either.

 

[Creaky]

For an individual club which isn't in the PL anymore? I cannot see it.

If they didn't there would be a real problem because currently the EPL is contracted to accept promotions from the Championship and the League is contracted to accept relegations from the EPL.

I can't see the EPL accepting a breach of that contract without at least a legal challenge and ultimately a tearing up of the agreement.

 

[El Presidente]

Also. There was a similar discussion and people suggesting legal action about relegation/points deduction for administration. Nothing came of this either.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but if there is a £60 million fine, there's a lawyer whispering in the ear of a club chairman.....

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If they didn't there would be a real problem because currently the EPL is contracted to accept promotions from the Championship and the League is contracted to accept relegations from the EPL.

I can't see the EPL accepting a breach of that contract without at least a legal challenge and ultimately a tearing up of the agreement.

As I understand it, whilst there is an agreement, relegated clubs still have to satisfy certain criteria and accept FL rules to play the the FL completion. I understand the FL are within their rights to exclude clubs if they do not satisfy the criteria. They are also within the rights to kick clubs out of the competiton at a later date. Not sure of your age but there was a vote in the late 90s to kick us out of the league. I appreciate this is unlikely and extreme but the power is there if need be and I hope the FL start to flex their muscles more in the future.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

Creaky. Stop with this EPL crap. I can't hear what you're saying through my rage. If you have to abbreviate it's the PL, but never the English Premier League FFS.

 

[drew]

QPR and Bolton didn't vote on the rules as they were PL clubs at the time. A lot will depend on the extent of the fine as to whether it is worth a legal gamble.

Doesn't matter, they accepted then as soon as they started in the FL competition.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but if there is a £60 million fine, there's a lawyer whispering in the ear of a club chairman.....

The premier league have agreed to the fines so it is likely that the money will be with held from the individual club from whatever monies are due for actually being in the premiership in the first place. If clubs don't adhere to the rules then yes they can challenge them but if they just stick their fingers in their ears and say 'not paying' then they will probably be in trouble with league, the Fa, possibly Uefa and even FIFA.

 

[Bolton va va]

Bolton's £163m debt is an exciting headline figure, but it's a bit misleading when nearly all of the debt is to our owner -& Wanderers' fan - Eddie Davies. Through some accounting smoke & mirrors, his own companies owe the money to his other companies..... not to the tax or other clubs or anything like that .We don't pay interest on it & Eddie isn't going to call the debt in & put BWFC into administration, & we even own our own ground, training facilities, hotel, etc ,etc,

By next December we we might even comply with the FFP by getting rid of the last players on prem. wages in the summer....apparently it's calculated on year on year accounts, & not on existing debt. Of course we're having to cut right back, especially on wages, & can forget promotion for now, but I doubt that we're worse off than Blackburn or Wolves who came down with us !!

It looks like any medium sized club without a hugely wealthy (overseas ? ) backer will struggle to last a few seasons in the premier league without racking up big debts. The alternative might be to go up without spending much, probably only last one season & bank the money...the Blackpool approach & maybe Palace this season !

 

[drew]

Bolton's £163m debt is an exciting headline figure, but it's a bit misleading when nearly all of the debt is to our owner -& Wanderers' fan - Eddie Davies. Through some accounting smoke & mirrors, his own companies owe the money to his other companies..... not to the tax or other clubs or anything like that .We don't pay interest on it & Eddie isn't going to call the debt in & put BWFC into administration, & we even own our own ground, training facilities, hotel, etc ,etc,

By next December we we might even comply with the FFP by getting rid of the last players on prem. wages in the summer....apparently it's calculated on year on year accounts, & not on existing debt. Of course we're having to cut right back, especially on wages, & can forget promotion for now, but I doubt that we're worse off than Blackburn or Wolves who came down with us !!

It looks like any medium sized club without a hugely wealthy (overseas ? ) backer will struggle to last a few seasons in the premier league without racking up big debts. The alternative might be to go up without spending much, probably only last one season & bank the money...the Blackpool approach & maybe Palace this season !

Not sure you will escape FFP as the penalties will be based on your operations for this season so selling players in the summer will fall into next season. Accounts for this current season have to be submitted by December next year. Your situation is not too dissimilar to our own in that we owe a substantial amount to one individual who happens also to be a lifelong fan of the club. Our advantage is that we have a healthier operating situation, albeit it at a loss but within FFP requirements.