Bolton £163 million in debt (!)

[gripper stebson]

Go into admin. Take ten point deduction. Carry on debt free.

You can get away with this twice apparently too!!

 

[worthingseagull123]

Exactly - unless you can somehow guarantee long term survival in the Prem, say like the top four seem to, then eventually the bubble has to burst, leaving relegated clubs with the reality of having to eventually exist within their own means, which is nigh on impossible for most. OK there are parachute payments but this is still an artificial cushion that is temporarily deferring the inevitable consequences. It seems Bolton are a 'good' example.

Yes getting to the Prem is seen as football's holy grail, it is really based on a perverse financial model that is almost entirely dependent on the sponsors money. They are fortunate that Sky and BT are now in a bidding war but you only have to look at the ITV and Setanta disasters to see how the promised monies can evaporate overnight. Without the Sky and Barclays monies how would the smaller Prem clubs survive?

The sooner we migrate to the German model of club ownership and financing (which isn't perfect but seems far more sustainable) the better. I fear that FFP will be great in theory and some clubs (like us) will work within it but the sanctions for others will be ineffective.

German model would be great. Fans wont be ripped off for ticket prices like we all are.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Hardly!

Would it be OK for there to be a mandatory clause, (irrespective of the employer's or employee's wishes), governing the future wages or employment status of accountants, bricklayers, teachers etc.

Here we go. Football is not like other industries. When an employer knows under certain circumstances it will lose say three-quarters if its revenue it has to be able to plan for that. If the law has to make allowance for that - I can't imagine the great British (or European) public being upset. Or be unable to distinguish between the employment status of teachers and professional footballers.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Surely, by now, you'd think a players contract would be set against the league they were playing in. So, Mr Rooney it's 250k per week but 20k per week in The Championship etc? Then there's a release clause for the player if hey don't wish to take the drop in wages? (With a sell on / wage pro-rata compensation payment to the club)

 

[Lord Bracknell]

German model would be great. Fans wont be ripped off for ticket prices like we all are.

Really? If you can persuade tens of thousands of people to shell out £35- £200 for a football match, what makes you think the price will drop to something lower than people have already shown they are willing to pay?

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Surely, by now, you'd think a players contract would be set against the league they were playing in. So, Mr Rooney it's 250k per week but 20k per week in The Championship etc? Then there's a release clause for the player if hey don't wish to take the drop in wages? (With a sell on / wage pro-rata compensation payment to the club)

I am sure some the finest legal minds would be able to work something out.

And don't call me Shirley.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Surely, by now, you'd think a players contract would be set against the league they were playing in. So, Mr Rooney it's 250k per week but 20k per week in The Championship etc? Then there's a release clause for the player if hey don't wish to take the drop in wages? (With a sell on / wage pro-rata compensation payment to the club)

The only mechanism that would work would be a cap on the total amount that every club was permitted to pay players - including caps on basic salaries and appearance bonuses. By all means pay Rooney a basic salary of hundreds of thousands a week, but only if you accept that the cap means you can't employ van Persie as well. Within such a scheme, you could, of course, pay players extra for decent performances (goals, assists and wins, for example).

Such a mechanism would work, but whether it would be acceptable is another matter,

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

If we are competing with clubs who have £30m wage bills then did we 'hit the ceiling' in getting to fourth last year? Leicester, QPR, Forest and a few others are paying far more than the Albion for wages.

It is not a ceiling - clubs not playing the highest wages can go up - like last season. But it sure ain't easy.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

Meaning that barely any club would ever be able to sell a player again and they could all walk out at the end of the season on a Bosman.

If you followed the discussion you would understand I was talking about before Bosman, when players couldn't walk out for free. Hence clubs give longer contracts now so players can't walk out and relegated teams end up in the sh*t. It's happened too much to be put down to bad chairmen

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

The only mechanism that would work would be a cap on the total amount that every club was permitted to pay players - including caps on basic salaries and appearance bonuses. By all means pay Rooney a basic pay of hundreds of thousands a week, but only if you accept that the cap means you can't employ van Persie as well. Within such a scheme, you could, of course, pay players extra for decent performances (goals, assists and wins, for example).

Such a mechanism would work, but whether it would be acceptable is another matter,

What you really need is zero pay contracts.

Each player in the league gets £0, his salary is then based on Opta statistics, league position and the clubs ability to pay. The entire wage budget for each club cannot exceed 60% of tickets sales and 60% of TV revenue.

Would Berbatov be strolling around the penalty area?

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

The only mechanism that would work would be a cap on the total amount that every club was permitted to pay players - including caps on basic salaries and appearance bonuses.

Why would a percentage deduction on an individual contract not work ? With a release clause if they want to move. All football contracts would have to include it.

 

[ditchy]

What you really need is zero pay contracts.

Each player in the league gets £0, his salary is then based on Opta statistics, league position and the clubs ability to pay. The entire wage budget for each club cannot exceed 60% of tickets sales and 60% of TV revenue.

Would Berbatov be strolling around the penalty area?

So what happens to an up and coming star who breaks a leg does the salary he get go to zero ?

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Insurance

 

[El Presidente]

No, we burst through the ceiling and we are likely to do so again this season. But this ceiling is only put there by people that believe that paying top money guarantees success.

Nothing guarantees success, but paying top money certainly helps achieve it.

In 2011/12 the top six in the Championship were (with wages in brackets)

1st Reading (4th £27 million)
2nd Southampton (2nd £29 million)
3rd West Ham (1st £42 million)
4th Birmingham (5th £25 million)
5th Blackpool (16th £12 million)
6th Cardiff (7th £21 million)

For interest

10th Albion (14th £15 million)

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Using a percentage of the gate and TV revenue would also place more responsibility with the players to promote the game and retain supporters

 

[El Presidente]

Using a percentage of the gate and TV revenue would also place more responsibility with the players to promote the game and retain supporters

It would merely reinforce the current status quo of the big clubs getting bigger and the small hanging on for survival.

 

[itszamora]

What you really need is zero pay contracts.

Each player in the league gets £0, his salary is then based on Opta statistics, league position and the clubs ability to pay. The entire wage budget for each club cannot exceed 60% of tickets sales and 60% of TV revenue.

Would Berbatov be strolling around the penalty area?

Your post is somewhat symptomatic of the mindset that running around like a headless chicken constantly is the best way to play football.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Your post is somewhat symptomatic of the mindset that running around like a headless chicken constantly is the best way to play football.

Not at all, I just use that example of a player who clearly shows interest in a match when it suits and can't be arsed on others occasions.

My examples throughout this promote enthusiasm but require a need to play attractive football to keep the fans. It demonstrates a need for clubs to develop players and ensure a good fan experience. Football can't continue to absorb huge stacks of cash for short term success, players also need to be a part of the longer term thinking.

 

[Acker79]

Your post is somewhat symptomatic of the mindset that running around like a headless chicken constantly is the best way to play football.

It depends on how it is weighted. The Opta statistics cover time on the ball, passes attempted, pass accuracy, range of passes, areas covered, etc. You can change the trigger points for different players to suit their game and what you expect from them. A 95% pass accuracy on 50+ passes per game, wouldn't encourage running around aimlessly.

Though, you would have to find a balance or else you'd get players playing for themselves, hogging the ball so that they trigger a time on the ball clause, or constantly wanting possession so they pass. Maybe two friends just stand there and pass it between themselves for 10 minutes. Can you imagine Upson and Greer just stood there outside the D passing to one another?

 

[drew]

The only mechanism that would work would be a cap on the total amount that every club was permitted to pay players - including caps on basic salaries and appearance bonuses. By all means pay Rooney a basic salary of hundreds of thousands a week, but only if you accept that the cap means you can't employ van Persie as well. Within such a scheme, you could, of course, pay players extra for decent performances (goals, assists and wins, for example).

Such a mechanism would work, but whether it would be acceptable is another matter,

And therein lies the problem. On what is the cap based. The way I see it is that FFP is an attempt to apply a cap of sorts, ie that clubs live within their financial means.

What you really need is zero pay contracts.

Each player in the league gets £0, his salary is then based on Opta statistics, league position and the clubs ability to pay. The entire wage budget for each club cannot exceed 60% of tickets sales and 60% of TV revenue.

Would Berbatov be strolling around the penalty area?

Why would you exclude sponsorship and for that matter, any other revenue stream that the clubs employ.

Trying to put this ridiculously complex FFP debacle in simplistic terms, if I understand correctly this is what will happen:-

1) Club breaks FFP

2) FL imposes transfer "embargo" (although it is not an "embargo" as all it means is that transfers would have to be sanctioned by FL)

3) FL refuses to sanction a transfer

4) Club sues FL (presumably under the "restraint of trade" legislation)

5) FL bottles it and approves transfer

If my understanding is correct, the rules are totally ineffective. By complying with FFP regulations, we are putting ourselves (in promotion to PL terms) at a massive disadvantage against those clubs who have given the FFP regulations the finger and who, it would appear, will not actually suffer any meaningful sanctions in the future for doing so?

Have I missed something? I must have done; please put me right!

Simplistic is the correct term because all you are doing is assuming that it won't work. There have been transfer embargoes on clubs in the past and the only reason the league have sanctioned a transfer is usually on an emergency basis for example when a club don't have a fit goalkeeper.

Disagree with that. You regularly see 5 or 6 year contracts, and sometimes longer. Back in the day I remember 1 year contracts & sometimes 2 years. There was no need for clubs to give players more than a year really

Who are on these 5 or 6 year contracts then. I don't think you will find anyone at the Albion on such a contract, nor the vast majority of players. In fact, can you provide links to show who exactly is on a 5 or 6 year contract? As for the past, don't you remember Bamber throwing around 10 year contracts like they were confetti. All well and good had we stayed in the First Division but alas we didn't.