Bob Crow has died

[drew]

30 years ago today Arthur Scargill declared a national miners strike after the wildcat industrial action that had taken place by workers in coalfields all around the country during the previous week. Little did he know at the time that he was signing the death warrant for the trades union movement.

Are there no trades unions then! Blimey, that's news to me!

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Are there no trades unions then! Blimey, that's news to me!

Not in the true sense of the word. What is left in this country wouldn't be able to fight their way out of a paper bag.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Again - basic economics: some proportion of the value embodied in the BMWs and Mercedes is, in fact, generated by the train drivers who transport those components and raw materials (steel etc) which come to the car plants by rail, and the BMW workers who get from their home to the factory by rail. Equally, at the same time those drivers are also contributing to the value embodied in lots of other goods and services produced and exported by the German economy. The distinction you are making between private sector workers supposedly creating value and public sector workers not doing so, is an entirely fallacious one.

This is emphatically not a political point, it's just simple economic text book stuff.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/workers-create-wealth-even-in-the-public-sector-20120302-1u7zw.html
http://timharford.com/2011/12/youre-wrong-we-are-all-wealth-creators/

Thanks for pointing this out. BaldSeagull and Jakata need to read and understand this.

 

[The Spanish]

Didn't like the fella (or at least his public persona) or what he stood for, or the misery he brought to commuters, even if he was doing what he thought was right, but I'm not going to either slag him off or celebrate his demise. He's far too young to have died and leaves family behind so only thoughts should really be with them.

inconvenience is not the same thing as misery.

I thought Bob Crow was an excellent man, even his name is cool.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

inconvenience is not the same thing as misery.

I thought Bob Crow was an excellent man, even his name is cool.

**** me. We agree on something.

 

[pastafarian]

Shame we now have no-one decent to stick up for the working man against the dictatorial Tory government

Dont be so defeatist.
There is still the Socialist Workers Party.

 

[beorhthelm]

http://timharford.com/2011/12/youre-wrong-we-are-all-wealth-creators/

but what about productivity? anyway, i like the link, but it seems to find a flaw mid way through the arguement.

communism didn’t collapse because there wasn’t any private sector to pay for the public sector. It collapsed because the incentives were thoroughly screwed up. There’s no logical reason why an economy couldn’t be 100 per cent public sector.

except the reason that it leads to thoroughly screwed up incentives. see Venezuela, where the strongly socialist government has managed to improvish the nation to the point that a country with the largest oil reserves has to import petrol. now this might not have a direct bearing to public sector (which of course has a place within the economy, not all services can or should be provided privately), but it does show where Bob Crow's politics would lead the country.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Shame we now have no-one decent to stick up for the working man against the dictatorial Tory government and old differs who are still under the mistaken belief Thatcher saved the country. She may have improved the lot of a few Home County right wingers and Daily Mail readers but she screwed most people in the UK over (not to mention attacking retreating ships in order to get re-elected) and sane people these days realise what a hideous mess she made of our country, sewing the seeds for pretty much every financial/housing/employment crisis that has followed her disastrous decade in power. Now we have Cameron going even further than the loathsome old crone dared. Bob Crow was a last vestige of working class sanity in an increasingly totalitarian United Kingdom. People will look back on BC's death and realise it was a very, very, very, dark day.

Thanks for that, noted.

 

[Beach Hut]

I am sure the great man would have chuckled at the cartoon in The Times today which really was a classic:

Bob Crow at the gates of heaven with god and angels present, clad in his traditionally branded RMT jacket and baseball cap, holding a loud hailer with the immortal words:

EVERYBODY OUT!

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Shame we now have no-one decent to stick up for the working man against the dictatorial Tory government and old differs who are still under the mistaken belief Thatcher saved the country. She may have improved the lot of a few Home County right wingers and Daily Mail readers but she screwed most people in the UK over (not to mention attacking retreating ships in order to get re-elected) and sane people these days realise what a hideous mess she made of our country, sewing the seeds for pretty much every financial/housing/employment crisis that has followed her disastrous decade in power. Now we have Cameron going even further than the loathsome old crone dared. Bob Crow was a last vestige of working class sanity in an increasingly totalitarian United Kingdom. People will look back on BC's death and realise it was a very, very, very, dark day.

Nibble you old political foe,you and I will not agree on politics...Thatcher did save the country from Union power...and yes I was a Union man then,mainly because you couldn't get a job in my trade if you were not a Union man...blackmail you might call it,seen strikes called because there was a puddle of water on the floor...but really it was an excuse to slow the job down. I once laid 35 checker plates all in a morning... all tack welded together to make a walkway...union leader came down and told me to lay no more than 15 a day.progress,hardly.
Secondly the sale of council houses...hundreds bought,lots by the socialist voters..then resold at a profit....double standards...think so.
Falklands war...are you saying that we should've let the Argies invade and take over the islands where the people democratically voted to stay with the UK...hope you placed a poppy on the memorial to those who gave their lives to retake the Islands.
Tony Blairs illegal war in Iraq was alright then in your book...the working class hero who is now ..Peace Envoy to the Middle East...(ironic) and a multi-millionaire,do you honestly think he gave a toss for the working man...then handed over to Clown Brown who almost bankrupt the UK.
You rant against the rich...the people who pay the marjority of tax in the country...the stock market is the biggest earner in the country,bigger than all manufacturing companies...yet you and people like Herr Tubthumper want to bring them down so you can get your hands on the riches...politics of envy is typical of all those of left thinking workers....remember the Luddites who wanted to stop mechanical
production to make more jobs for workers...that didn't work then and does not work now...you can't stop progress.
Tell me where socialism has worked, East Germany ? Poland? Russia ? It will never work because you will always have somebody who is better off than you...you want to get the same money...work your way up the ladder instead of moaning that "Oh he is getting more money than me,danm the rotten rich".
But bless you young man...your entitled to your view...but you hatred of the right and the Daily Mail...(one of the biggest selling Daily papers in the country) shines through like a wet match..

 

[clapham_gull]

Nibble you old political foe,you and I will not agree on politics...Thatcher did save the country from Union power...and yes I was a Union man then,mainly because you couldn't get a job in my trade if you were not a Union man...blackmail you might call it,seen strikes called because there was a puddle of water on the floor...but really it was an excuse to slow the job down. I once laid 35 checker plates all in a morning... all tack welded together to make a walkway...union leader came down and told me to lay no more than 15 a day.progress,hardly.
Secondly the sale of council houses...hundreds bought,lots by the socialist voters..then resold at a profit....double standards...think so.
Falklands war...are you saying that we should've let the Argies invade and take over the islands where the people democratically voted to stay with the UK...hope you placed a poppy on the memorial to those who gave their lives to retake the Islands.
Tony Blairs illegal war in Iraq was alright then in your book...the working class hero who is now ..Peace Envoy to the Middle East...(ironic) and a multi-millionaire,do you honestly think he gave a toss for the working man...then handed over to Clown Brown who almost bankrupt the UK.
You rant against the rich...the people who pay the marjority of tax in the country...the stock market is the biggest earner in the country,bigger than all manufacturing companies...yet you and people like Herr Tubthumper want to bring them down so you can get your hands on the riches...politics of envy is typical of all those of left thinking workers....remember the Luddites who wanted to stop mechanical
production to make more jobs for workers...that didn't work then and does not work now...you can't stop progress.
Tell me where socialism has worked, East Germany ? Poland? Russia ? It will never work because you will always have somebody who is better off than you...you want to get the same money...work your way up the ladder instead of moaning that "Oh he is getting more money than me,danm the rotten rich".
But bless you young man...your entitled to your view...but you hatred of the right and the Daily Mail...(one of the biggest selling Daily papers in the country) shines through like a wet match..

On the subject of the Falkland Islanders, Nationality and Democracy it may be worth cribbing up on the Conservative Party's attitude towards that in the years leading up to the conflict.

And I understand (although economists on here can gladly prove me wrong) that whilst manufacturing has decreased massively in this country over the decades it stills generates a higher percentage of income for the country than the financial sector.

Lastly you can't really state that the rich pay the majority of tax without stating what rich is and what (over 50% I presume) "majority" they pay.

If you say rich means a salary of over £160,000 (the top 1%) they contribute a third. If rich means over a million that's 12 percent.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

you and people like Herr Tubthumper want to bring them down so you can get your hands on the riches...politics of envy is typical of all those of left thinking workers.

The arrogance of this statement is flabbergasting. You know nothing about me or my situation in life so how can you make such a sweeping patronising judgement? My politics are formed on wanting a fairer society.... end of. I will always vote for the party which offers the best chance of this and my beliefs are influenced more by other people's situations than my own. Why is it that you seemingly believe the main reason people vote left is because they are somehow financially disadvantaged? And what the hell has wealth got to do with one's politics anyway?

And the rest of your post has more holes in its arguments than a swiss cheese. Some of your points just do not make any logical sense. What sort of argument is "the stock market is the biggest earner in the country,bigger than all manufacturing companies..."? Given the UK manufactures **** all it's hardly suprising is it? I bet my local newsagent earns more then the miniscule UK manufacturing base. And the 'work your way up the ladder' argument is daft as well. Just stop and think about what you are saying; for one minute please just stop and think if it is possible for everyone-to-have-everything which is the conclusion of what you have suggested.

Argue away but if you want to make a judgement about why I vote Labour please know something about me.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I am sure the great man would have chuckled at the cartoon in The Times today which really was a classic:

Bob Crow at the gates of heaven with god and angels present, clad in his traditionally branded RMT jacket and baseball cap, holding a loud hailer with the immortal words:

EVERYBODY OUT!

That is funny.

 

[Nibble]

Nibble you old political foe,you and I will not agree on politics...Thatcher did save the country from Union power...and yes I was a Union man then,mainly because you couldn't get a job in my trade if you were not a Union man...blackmail you might call it,seen strikes called because there was a puddle of water on the floor...but really it was an excuse to slow the job down. I once laid 35 checker plates all in a morning... all tack welded together to make a walkway...union leader came down and told me to lay no more than 15 a day.progress,hardly.
Secondly the sale of council houses...hundreds bought,lots by the socialist voters..then resold at a profit....double standards...think so.
Falklands war...are you saying that we should've let the Argies invade and take over the islands where the people democratically voted to stay with the UK...hope you placed a poppy on the memorial to those who gave their lives to retake the Islands.
Tony Blairs illegal war in Iraq was alright then in your book...the working class hero who is now ..Peace Envoy to the Middle East...(ironic) and a multi-millionaire,do you honestly think he gave a toss for the working man...then handed over to Clown Brown who almost bankrupt the UK.
You rant against the rich...the people who pay the marjority of tax in the country...the stock market is the biggest earner in the country,bigger than all manufacturing companies...yet you and people like Herr Tubthumper want to bring them down so you can get your hands on the riches...politics of envy is typical of all those of left thinking workers....remember the Luddites who wanted to stop mechanical
production to make more jobs for workers...that didn't work then and does not work now...you can't stop progress.
Tell me where socialism has worked, East Germany ? Poland? Russia ? It will never work because you will always have somebody who is better off than you...you want to get the same money...work your way up the ladder instead of moaning that "Oh he is getting more money than me,danm the rotten rich".
But bless you young man...your entitled to your view...but you hatred of the right and the Daily Mail...(one of the biggest selling Daily papers in the country) shines through like a wet match..

Just to clear one point up, I loathe what Tony Blair turned into a few years after he was elected into power. He turned his back on democracy and left wing thinking and is now a toxic profiteer existing only to increase his personal wealth. The other points you raise hold varying degrees of plausibility and I can't be arsed to address.

 

[soistes]

You rant against the rich...the people who pay the marjority of tax in the country...the stock market is the biggest earner in the country,bigger than all manufacturing companies...yet you and people like Herr Tubthumper want to bring them down so you can get your hands on the riches...politics of envy is typical of all those of left thinking workers....remember the Luddites who wanted to stop mechanical

I can't speak for Herr Tubthumper and Nibble at whom this comment is targeted, but I do object to the assumption that a left-wing egalitarian perspective is driven by envy. I find this insulting and disrespectful.
Personally speaking, I have always voted Labour (in the absence of genuine socialist alternatives), but this is not through envy. Indeed, I am lucky enough to have an income considerably higher than the national average, and have been a higher rate taxpayer for most of my working life, and will have a decent occupational pension as and when I retire. I also run a successful business, for what its worth (where I recognise and negotiate happily with the trade union).
I have nothing to be envious about -- I simply believe in fairness, and equality of opportunity, and free access to decent health, education and other public services for all, and I believe that people's chances in life should not be dependent on the luck of having been born to rich parents. I would be very happy to pay much higher taxes than I currently do in order to ensure that all this happens.
I know other people with similar views who are in a similar position to me. Again nothing to do with envy.

 

[BLOCK F]

I can't speak for Herr Tubthumper and Nibble at whom this comment is targeted, but I do object to the assumption that a left-wing egalitarian perspective is driven by envy. I find this insulting and disrespectful.
Personally speaking, I have always voted Labour (in the absence of genuine socialist alternatives), but this is not through envy. Indeed, I am lucky enough to have an income considerably higher than the national average, and have been a higher rate taxpayer for most of my working life, and will have a decent occupational pension as and when I retire. I also run a successful business, for what its worth (where I recognise and negotiate happily with the trade union).
I have nothing to be envious about -- I simply believe in fairness, and equality of opportunity, and free access to decent health, education and other public services for all, and I believe that people's chances in life should not be dependent on the luck of having been born to rich parents. I would be very happy to pay much higher taxes than I currently do in order to ensure that all this happens.
I know other people with similar views who are in a similar position to me. Again nothing to do with envy.

Very commendable to be so true to one's beliefs and I am sure from the information you give about your own circumstances that envy does not come into it.
However,there is no getting away from it that there is a degree of envy that raises its ugly head in certain sections of the Left and it does no favours to the cause,merely presenting the proponents as chippy,bitter and angry.
I write as a Tory voter,who nevertheless counts amongst his friends a number of people with similar views to your own.I try and avoid the 'enviers'!
Not sure that paying more taxes is the answer to your wishes though.

 

[drew]

There are some classic stereotypes being spouted here.

There may well be an element of envy in some left wingers but in many there is also a desire to have a fairer society where you get a fair reward for your contribution. As for this reference to envy, one of the so called seven deadly sins, isn't one of the others greed! If so, could the left equally hurl that at many conservatives who look for their leaders to reduce taxation so they have more in their pocket to spend how they chose rather than on public services that they probably never use!!!

As for the Daily Mail, in my experience, most of the people I know that read that rag do so with bigoted tendencies. One person defraud the benefit office so therefore they are all at it. One immigrant is claiming housing benefit ergo all immigrants are claiming benefit. One teenager has a baby and is housed by the local authority and therefore all teenage mothers are living purely on state aid. There may well be people that read the Daily Mail that aren't like that, but I've yet to meet them (sorry about the stereotyping !!).

Now the public sector are told that they get a 1% pay rise next year and the government justifying it are getting a 7% pay rise!!!!!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Very commendable to be so true to one's beliefs and I am sure from the information you give about your own circumstances that envy does not come into it.
However,there is no getting away from it that there is a degree of envy that raises its ugly head in certain sections of the Left and it does no favours to the cause,merely presenting the proponents as chippy,bitter and angry.
I write as a Tory voter,who nevertheless counts amongst his friends a number of people with similar views to your own.I try and avoid the 'enviers'!
Not sure that paying more taxes is the answer to your wishes though.

Where do you see this "degree of envy?" Do you believe it is the case for the majority/significant number of left voters? I am with soistes on this; it is insulting and disrespectful. I know Labour supporters from all walks of life and varying backgrounds and current positions. The only consistent label I can assign to them is Labour supporters. To suggest they all walk around in threadbare elbow patched jumpers and are mainly envious of wealth would be totally inaccurate.

 

[simmo]

Where do you see this "degree of envy?" Do you believe it is the case for the majority/significant number of left voters? I am with soistes on this; it is insulting and disrespectful. I know Labour supporters from all walks of life and varying backgrounds and current positions. The only consistent label I can assign to them is Labour supporters. To suggest they all walk around in threadbare elbow patched jumpers and are mainly envious of wealth would be totally inaccurate.

What, as insulting and disrespectful as having street parties and getting ding dong the witch is dead to No.1 when Thatcher died. Those that did this, give the rest of us a glimpse of them as individuals and their psyche and in that one action alone they showed to many their "degree of envy". Envious of those who were succesful under Thatcher (of which there were millions, as that is why she won 3 elections) and didn't feel the need to revel in her passing away......What sort of person parites when someone dies How disrespectful is that to Thatcher's children and grandchildren?

 

[soistes]

What, as insulting and disrespectful as having street parties and getting ding dong the witch is dead to No.1 when Thatcher died. Those that did this, give the rest of us a glimpse of them as individuals and their psyche and in that one action alone they showed to many their "degree of envy". Envious of those who were succesful under Thatcher (of which there were millions, as that is why she won 3 elections) and didn't feel the need to revel in her passing away......What sort of person parites when someone dies How disrespectful is that to Thatcher's children and grandchildren?

I'm only guessing here, but maybe at least some of the people to whom you refer were not so much envious of those who were "successful" under Thatcher, as angry on behalf of those whose communities and livelihoods were destroyed by Thatcher's divisive policies?