Bloody Sunday & the Saville Inquiry.

[El Presidente]

So because the other side were amateurs and they were facing professional British army does it make their actions justifiable? or that of their bombing campaigns against civilian targets?

You are assuming that everyone on the march and those killed during Bloody Sunday was in favour of bombing civilians. Do you have any evidence to support that viewpoint?

 

[El Presidente]

The squaddies were young, they panicked, they opened fire for no reason

Perhaps they thought they were in more danger than they were?

Surely there should have been more experienced colleagues around them to prevent them getting a bit trigger happy, or perhaps there was a complete vacuum of leadership for that unit?

 

[Joey Deacon's Disco Suit]

Sure.

I've considered why average nondescript people are driven to commit such vile acts.

And the reason is they have experienced similar acts committed upon themselves, their family or their countrymen.

Not good enough I'm afraid and for two reasons. Firstly, you have no life experience in this field so by your own assessment all judgements are worthless.

Secondly, and despite me teasingly offering you the chance to outright condemn an atrocity by the PIRA without qualifying it with some weasel words, you appear from your answer to have only considered the viewpoint from the PIRA side.

Where is the consideration of what stress the soldiers were under? Where us your analysis of the position of the British Government?

All you've done is confirm your own prejudice.


Have another try.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Sure.

I've considered why average nondescript people are driven to commit such vile acts.

And the reason is they have experienced similar acts committed upon themselves, their family or their countrymen.

Isn't that the same excuse Paedophiles use to justify their abuse? - It doesn't excuse their actions, and it shouldn't excuse those who resort to terrorism.

 

[El Presidente]

If they were unhappy with the events in their country, why didn't they try to change things through a political route rather than by bomb and bullet ?

From the BBC

What happened next

The events of Bloody Sunday caused shock and revulsion across the world. In Dublin, a crowd of protesters burnt the British Embassy.

In Northern Ireland, it marked the effective end of the non-violent campaign for civil rights.

Some young people who had previously regarded themselves as non-political joined the IRA.

The shootings that day was the biggest recruitment drive in the IRA's history.

The good news is that there are no more shootings of civilians, no more army roadblocks, no more stop and search.

I was working at the University of Ulster today, and there is certainly more hope, but it never easy over there given the ridiculous polarised views of people and their different interpretations of their invisible friend in the sky.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

So because the other side were amateurs and they were facing professional British army does it make their actions justifiable? or that of their bombing campaigns against civilian targets?

If they were unhappy with the events in their country, why didn't they try to change things through a political route rather than by bomb and bullet ?

Well at the end of the day there were a lot of people dead.

None of which were soldiers.

If the inquiry finds that the soldiers were fired upon then they had justification to fire back.

But they aren't justified to shoot indiscriminately into crowds on the off chance they might hit the guy with the gun.


They tried the political route and it didn't get them anywhere. All it got them was separated politically from the rest of their nation.

It's hard to make much political head waves when you're viewed as second class citizens by those ruling over you.

 

[readingstockport]

Perhaps they thought they were in more danger than they were?

Surely there should have been more experienced colleagues around them to prevent them getting a bit trigger happy, or perhaps there was a complete vacuum of leadership for that unit?

Possibly El P. The point as far as I am concerned is that the victims were killed by british soldiers for no good reason.

Young kids panic.

Max hastings, not exactly the most republican of journalists, was on radio 4 this morning saying he was speaking to paratroop regiment on the morning of bloody sunday and he said the mood of the troop was 'were going to kick some ass' to paraphrase slightly.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Isn't that the same excuse Paedophiles use to justify their abuse? - It doesn't excuse their actions, and it shouldn't excuse those who resort to terrorism.

And what of the people who took self rule from them and imposed their own laws and military force upon them?

That's very much a form of state terrorism imposed upon the part of the populace that it is prejudiced against.

It's the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Well at the end of the day there were a lot of people dead.

None of which were soldiers.

If the inquiry finds that the soldiers were fired upon then they had justification to fire back.

But they aren't justified to shoot indiscriminately into crowds on the off chance they might hit the guy with the gun.


They tried the political route and it didn't get them anywhere. All it got them was separated politically from the rest of their nation.

It's hard to make much political head waves when you're viewed as second class citizens by those ruling over you.

Why were there people carrying guns during a peaceful march for civil rights, especially if it was before the so called flashpoint this incident created which spurred the violence according to some?

 

[readingstockport]

Why were there people carrying guns during a peaceful march for civil rights, especially if it was before the so called flashpoint this incident created which spurred the violence according to some?

Stop trying to defend the indefensible. The facts are that the british troops opened fire first, on unarmed civilians. Whether there were people in the area or on the march carrying weapons is immaterial. Those people did not use their weapons until after the paras had already begun killing people.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

I think the main thing we've learned here is that British police and government should stop carrying out any sort of investigations or trials, as everyone on NSC already knows exactly what happens without having to compile or analyse any evidence!

 

[Guy Fawkes]

And what of the people who took self rule from them and imposed their own laws and military force upon them?

That's very much a form of state terrorism imposed upon the part of the populace that it is prejudiced against.

It's the pot calling the kettle black.

The British empire expanded over the globe and we imposed rule on alot of other countries, most benefitted greatly from this and embraced British rule and the improvements to the quality of life it brought, they didn't resort to violence.

In Northern Ireland there are two groups split down religious lines, one opposed to British rule possibly due to events in history concerned with religion (Major battles in history where they were recruited as mercenaries to support one side when religion played a part in who ruled the country and also the implications of the failed Catholic gunpowder plot for example) The other side want to remain as a part of the UK (protestants)

So how do both sides get what they want? Religious rivalries have played part in the troubles, it is a divided country. How does violence resolve this?

Do we get terrorist groups in Wales and Scotland demanding independance and resorting to terrorism to try to get there way.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Not good enough I'm afraid and for two reasons. Firstly, you have no life experience in this field so by your own assessment all judgements are worthless.

Incorrect.

I live in a nation with a native peoples who have faced a similar battle as those in NI.

You can see how years of living under another cultures laws and force have affected them.

Secondly, and despite me teasingly offering you the chance to outright condemn an atrocity by the PIRA without qualifying it with some weasel words, you appear from your answer to have only considered the viewpoint from the PIRA side.

Pretty sure i've said their actions were vile in other posts.

I can't be blamed for your inability to read.

Where is the consideration of what stress the soldiers were under? Where us your analysis of the position of the British Government?

If the soldiers were under stress then it's the military's fault for sending them in there in that state in the first place.

If they aren't in control of their emotions then they shouldn't be put in such a situation.

That's the military failing its own men.

And have you considered if they'd used police rather than soldiers it would be less threatening?

Because that's what guys with f***ing huge guns are to people, threatening.

All you've done is confirm your own prejudice.

Have another try.

I always go for the underdogs.

f***ing hate big bullys who push others around.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

(Major battles in history where they were recruited as mercenaries to support one side when religion played a part in who ruled the country and also the implications of the failed Catholic gunpowder plot for example)

I'm not sure if that sentence even makes any sense, but it certainly doesn't even remotely explain the background of Irish nationalism in any way.

 

[El Presidente]

Incorrect.

I live in a nation with a native peoples who have faced a similar battle as those in NI.

You can see how years of living under another cultures laws and force have affected them.

True, no one should ever be caught maltreating the Abo's.........if there's anyone watching.

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[readingstockport]

Do we get terrorist groups in Wales and Scotland demanding independance and resorting to terrorism to try to get there way.

Ermmm. How old are you? Genuine question.

 

[El Presidente]

Do we get terrorist groups in Wales and Scotland demanding independance and resorting to terrorism to try to get there way.

No. But then I don't recall the indigenous population in those provinces being treated as second class citizens either, or being attacked by paramilitaries and the local police force turn a blind eye.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

The British empire expanded over the globe and we imposed rule on alot of other countries, most benefitted greatly from this and embraced British rule and the improvements to the quality of life it brought, they didn't resort to violence.

Please tell me you are kidding?

Most nations native peoples fought back and opposed such rule.

Australian Aboriginals fought back.

Maoris fought back.

Irish fought back.

Indians fought back.

Native American Indians fought back.

Arabs fought back.

I'm not going to argue that in todays world what the British brought wasnt beneficial by todays standards.

But look at what they lost. Their cultures were destroyed, thousands of them were killed

Taking a mindset that British rule was a benevolent one is way off the mark.

In Northern Ireland there are two groups split down religious lines, one opposed to British rule due to events in history concerned with religion (Major battles in history where they were recruited as mercenaries to support one side when religion played a part in who ruled the country and also the implications of the failed Catholic gunpowder plot for example) The other side want to remain as a part of the UK (protestants)

So how do both sides get what they want? Religious rivalries have played part in the troubles, it is a divided country. How does violence resolve this?

This wasn't always the way.

Wolfe Tonne a Protestant gave one of the best speeches by an Irish Republican ever not long before he was executed for being well, an Irish Republican.

I refuse to recognise religion as being the sole problem in regards to the troubles.

Once laws were brought in to oppress Catholics then that began the problems we now see today stil because it sought to create one rule for some and another rule for othersl.

To be honest mate I dont think there's anything that can be done right now to change things.

The only way I see it changing in the long term is if they hold referendums in the individual counties on the matter of seperation from the British state.

Gven only 2 counties now in NI are majority Protestants it might all end simply when the Catholics out breed the Protestants.

Do we get terrorist groups in Wales and Scotland demanding independance and resorting to terrorism to try to get there way.

The Welsh were brutally crushed very early on in the piece so they were never going to be a problem.

And the Scots did have some mighty bloody battles with the English.

I guess it probably comes down to the Irish disposition.

Stubborn people who make shit house slaves.

 

[readingstockport]

Erm, I hate to puncture the complacency about Welsh and Scottish Nationalists but those of us who are slightly older will remember the letter bombs and the firebombings carried out by both groups in the 70's, 80's and 90's. Not the nine o'clock news actually had a skit on it in the 80's when they parodied a then running national coal board ad by saying

'come home to a real fire, buy a cottage in wales'.

Scottish National Liberation Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Meibion Glyndŵr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Welsh militants 'posed IRA-style terrorist threat' - Telegraph

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Why were there people carrying guns during a peaceful march for civil rights, especially if it was before the so called flashpoint this incident created which spurred the violence according to some?

Because the soldiers were carrying guns.


One thing I've always admired about the British police system is that they dont carry guns.

When you're not carrying a gun people arent as threatened by you and less likely to pull a gun out and shoot you.

America on the other hand is the opposite. Everyone carrys guns so the general populace and Police all are a bit trigger happy.

If on SBS the Police were the only force visible at the event and no guns were visible then that would create a completely different environment imo.

One where people arent on edge as much.