[Albion] Billy Gilmour

[dazzer6666]

All about opinions .... but you don't need to be a footballing genius to understand that when your style is compromised by the opposition then changing the style MIGHT help e.g. Newcastle, Forest, Villa all stopped us playing plan A football and we found it hard to counter them.

Don't get me wrong its a great style that's got great results but that's generally against teams that have been open either the top teams or really poor teams (wolves, southampton ).

The comment though was really a question about how RDZ seemed to ignore Gilmour for most of the season yet when he has played he has looked very good and his passing has been excellent yet strangely was not picked to play in a team playing passing football.

Newcastle - more down to team selection than tactics perhaps ?
Forest - likewise, players were knackered after Wembley, DeZ has already admitted playing some of them was a mistake
Villa - again, team selection played a part

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Agree, but I’d suggest that RDZ not realising something isn’t the case. There is a sub level of detail that RDZ is working to that is difficult to appreciate. Undoubtedly he will want to improve those results, but there were other teams that defended deep like Palace, West Ham, Chelsea that we get over the line.

Not sure our style or tactics were the issue either, available personnel, fatigue, emotion (post pens) were all factors - not whether we needed to change our approach.

As said before my opinion is Gilmour is falling into a sub layer of detail that is keeping him out of the team more than he would like. For us seems to be doing many things well, but don’t think that’s enough for this coach yet.

Agreed.

One thing I’ve noticed with Gilmour is that he always wants or demands the ball and will inevitably look tidy with it. It’s probably a big reason he’s got as far as he has. He’s a very good ‘keep the ball ticking over’ kind of player. I think his trouble is that RDZ isn’t interested in simply keeping the ball ticking over. Of course, RDZ wants us to keep the ball but every pass or movement into space has to have a purpose which creates a domino effect for a pattern of play or chain of passing.

Every player has to be thinking almost 5/6 passes ahead of when they receive the ball or make a pass, especially in the early stages of our build-up which Gilmour is involved in. Unfortunately, I think there are times when Gilmour doesn’t follow this line of thinking and reverts into the style of let’s just keep the ball moving which will undoubtedly infuriate RDZ from time to time, everything has to have a purpose!

@Machiavelli is also accurate in his assessment of Gilmour’s lack of dynamism, ball recovery and athleticism. Annoyingly for him he’s never going to have the long bendy legs or pace of Caicedo. Even if he does get to Caicedo’s level of reading the game he won’t be able to match him.

 

[Machiavelli]

This always fascinates me... Yes, De Zerbi has a clear style, but do you really think he only has a Plan A? He's probably the most tactically flexible managers I've seen in a long time.

Take Steele: Clearly he has the instruction to play the ball around the back and draw the press, but he also goes long quite often depending on who we're playing.

[This isn't directed at you] Generally, the use of the phrase ""needs a Plan B" translates into "Why doesn't he just whack it up to the big man?" and ignores the fact that more often than not we actually already do that when the need arrives.

On Gilmour, De Zerbi openly said he got it wrong with him, so has integrated him much more of late.

Maybe this is for another thread, but I think GP was much more tactically flexible than RDZ, and am not entirely convinced by the Steele example (ie, his instruction is to be a quarter-back which entails passing long and short -- on Steele, I don't think I've seen a GK with the range of passing that he has and has been encouraged to deliver anywhere else).
The reason why is that GP had a variety of formations (often informed by what the opposition did) and encouraged players to be flexible in where they played (Solly being the prime example), whereas RDZ has a plan, and its a quite brilliant one (a la Pep and Klopp) so why mess with magic?

 

[raymondo]

This excerpt from a Twitter thread about Enciso reminded me that Billy is a Champions League winner (from the bench):

Excellent read, thanks for posting. Julio is clearly open, emotional, passionate and, importantly, willing to learn. What a great lad at such a young age

 

[Wardy's twin]

Newcastle - more down to team selection than tactics perhaps ?
Forest - likewise, players were knackered after Wembley, DeZ has already admitted playing some of them was a mistake
Villa - again, team selection played a part

Agree team selection plays a big part but if you have to bring in players who are not as good with the RDZ system then you need to modify the way you play to accommodate them. Also the RDZ style is quite intense and therefore physically and mentally draining which is not what you want if your team is 'tired'. I just think it makes sense to have alternative strategies to accommodate the way the opposition plays against you. Prefer RDZ over Potter but the latter did that quite well , perhaps too well with too much tinkering.

Ultimately he has delivered 6th place with his style of play with some impressive wins but I do think we struggled against some teams and we could not counter them. Agree it's also fine margins e.g. Ferguson takes one of his chances then different game , same with Enciso header against Newcastle when it was 2-1 so his style might have prevailed in those games as well.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Newcastle - more down to team selection than tactics perhaps ?
Forest - likewise, players were knackered after Wembley, DeZ has already admitted playing some of them was a mistake
Villa - again, team selection played a part

Plus the fact that they were essentially on the beach, having got the "big target" achieved against Manchester City.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Plus the fact that they were essentially on the beach, having got the "big target" achieved against Manchester City.

So you are saying we are not professional enough.

 

[rogersix]

Big season coming up for wee Billy

you had written him off. not so long ago

 

[banjo]

He well and truly took his chance.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

So you are saying we are not professional enough.

No.

 

[raymondo]

Agree team selection plays a big part but if you have to bring in players who are not as good with the RDZ system then you need to modify the way you play to accommodate them. Also the RDZ style is quite intense and therefore physically and mentally draining which is not what you want if your team is 'tired'. I just think it makes sense to have alternative strategies to accommodate the way the opposition plays against you. Prefer RDZ over Potter but the latter did that quite well , perhaps too well with too much tinkering.

Ultimately he has delivered 6th place with his style of play with some impressive wins but I do think we struggled against some teams and we could not counter them. Agree it's also fine margins e.g. Ferguson takes one of his chances then different game , same with Enciso header against Newcastle when it was 2-1 so his style might have prevailed in those games as well.

I agree it's physically and mentally draining, and yes some tweaking for plan B etc could be very beneficial. Next season will be interesting: v likely to lose AliMac and more, a full pre season with RDZ is a plus but new faces to bed in too.

 

[dazzer6666]

Agree team selection plays a big part but if you have to bring in players who are not as good with the RDZ system then you need to modify the way you play to accommodate them. Also the RDZ style is quite intense and therefore physically and mentally draining which is not what you want if your team is 'tired'. I just think it makes sense to have alternative strategies to accommodate the way the opposition plays against you. Prefer RDZ over Potter but the latter did that quite well , perhaps too well with too much tinkering.

Ultimately he has delivered 6th place with his style of play with some impressive wins but I do think we struggled against some teams and we could not counter them. Agree it's also fine margins e.g. Ferguson takes one of his chances then different game , same with Enciso header against Newcastle when it was 2-1 so his style might have prevailed in those games as well.

I don’t think so…….DeZ is more coaching players to play his way rather than accommodating those who can’. Already seen this with players like Gilmour and Van Hecke.

 

[KLF]

Is that Peupion on the left? He’s tiny!

 

[Wardy's twin]

I don’t think so…….DeZ is more coaching players to play his way rather than accommodating those who can’. Already seen this with players like Gilmour and Van Hecke.

I think that is the crux of the debate , he needs all the players to be the same so they fit the system but he has a few who don't or can't or maybe need more time. He doesn't have enough players who can play his system and he will be potentially loosing 3 of those players (Mac, Caicedo and potentially Lallana ) so will need to recruit quite a few to cover positions. Whilst he has the next 2 months to recruit those players , it still doesn't address what happens when the plan A is not working. All about opinion but if a good player like Gilmour can't fit into the system then it will be hard recruiting.

 

[dazzer6666]

I think that is the crux of the debate , he needs all the players to be the same so they fit the system but he has a few who don't or can't or maybe need more time. He doesn't have enough players who can play his system and he will be potentially loosing 3 of those players (Mac, Caicedo and potentially Lallana ) so will need to recruit quite a few to cover positions. Whilst he has the next 2 months to recruit those players , it still doesn't address what happens when the plan A is not working. All about opinion but if a good player like Gilmour can't fit into the system then it will be hard recruiting.

Personally think Gilmour does………so does DeZ who has already admitted his ‘mistake’ in not giving him more game time. JPVH also looks to have broken through based on the City game. We’ll see……..

 

[Wardy's twin]

This always fascinates me... Yes, De Zerbi has a clear style, but do you really think he only has a Plan A? He's probably the most tactically flexible managers I've seen in a long time.

Take Steele: Clearly he has the instruction to play the ball around the back and draw the press, but he also goes long quite often depending on who we're playing.

[This isn't directed at you] Generally, the use of the phrase ""needs a Plan B" translates into "Why doesn't he just whack it up to the big man?" and ignores the fact that more often than not we actually already do that when the need arrives.

On Gilmour, De Zerbi openly said he got it wrong with him, so has integrated him much more of late.

Against Newcastle and Forest we struggled as we tried to play the ball through players who were pressing us hard and it was not really working. We scored because we took a more direct approach fast and forward ball to strikers feet....

Regards going route 1.... I don't see it as a problem as long as it's not your only strategy (plan). I don't think we do it enough , many many times we have pulled the opposition into our half and lots of space left and Mitoma on his own but ignored. Understand its a possession game we play (and have done under a few managers) but ultimately the game is about scoring goals and winning and we know tehre have been many games where we have had lots of possession but have lost .

As I said all about opinions , its just my view .

 

[Wardy's twin]

Personally think Gilmour does………so does DeZ who has already admitted his ‘mistake’ in not giving him more game time. JPVH also looks to have broken through based on the City game. We’ll see……..

i agree , you need good passers of the ball for RDZ football and he is one of our best ....

 

[Littlemo]

A bit about Brighton at the start.