[Other Sport] Best sportsman / athlete of all time

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Has to be Ali for me. Was a stunning, classy looking fighter but to go against the government and condemn the vietnam war. He was threatened to be shot in the ring on many occasions and still performed. I also believe we missed his best years when he was stripped of his title and not allowed to box for 3 and a half years.

Just out of interest why use Cassius Clay? He didn't want that name and changed it.

That just how I remember him at his best. No other reason. A young eloquent, supremely intelligent black athlete.

 

[SK1NT]

He lost to Frazier however still 29 years old, and in boxing terms that is still pretty young. When Ken Norton beat him, Ali was 31, even in the return 6 months later, Ali only won on a controversial split decision. When they fought a 3rd time with Ali now 34, again it was a close decision. Remembering that Foreman completely destroyed Norton in '74.

Hypothetical of course, but Ali wouldn't have fought Foreman in those '67 - '70 years anyway as Foreman didn't turn 20 years old until '69. That he beat Foreman who was then 25 years old does stand him as the greatest heavyweight in my humble opinion, but he wasn't unbeatable.

Incidentally the Ken Burns documentary on Ali on BBC iPlayer is brilliant for anyone who hasn't watched it. I've also just finished reading 'The Fight' by Norman Mailler which while controversial is a brilliant book on the Foreman fight.

Arguably his greatest fight was '66 against Cleveland Williams. A fantastic watch:

I agree re the Cleveland Williams fight being his best performance, however although he was fairly young when he lost to Frazier and Norton he just was never quite the same after those 3 years out.

 

[Triggaaar]

He's the most tested Track and Field athlete of all time, and has never failed a test.

That is not a fact. He may have failed tests in Jamaica, which Jamaica would have covered up. Athletes know how long in advance of a competition to stop doping, in order to appear clean, so testing clean at competition really doesn't mean much. Ben Johnson overdid his drug use to fail the test in '88, while Carl Lewis and Linford Christie appeared negative. Flo Jo used to pass the tests, but that girl was a walking chemist.

Usain Bolt's teammates have tested positive, with the same coach and doctor. It makes no sense that the only clean athlete was faster than all his teammates who were boosting. If Bolt hadn't been doping, you'd be forgiven for thinking the drugs were making the others slower.

If we can't accept his achievements for what they are, then we may as well scrap all sport.

Wow, baby out with the water.

 

[Triggaaar]

Agree with all that. My point though, is that once you go down the path of questioning the achievements of people who have never been proven as anything other than clean, on the grounds of 'quickest = must be cheating' then the whole thing is rendered a waste of time.

Did you even bother reading the link I posted? It clearly isn't a just case of 'quickest = cheating'.

 

[knocky1]

[MENTION=33116]Garry Nelson's teacher[/MENTION] has to be up there.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I agree re the Cleveland Williams fight being his best performance, however although he was fairly young when he lost to Frazier and Norton he just was never quite the same after those 3 years out.

So I’ve always wondered whether it wasn’t so much Ali wasn’t the same but rather the opposition had 3 years to develop ways to combat him. Obviously as a young man no one had seen his style so had not strategies to combat it. As an example, Ali would jab slightly open with his right down opening up the counter jab which Norton probably exploited as well as anyone over their 3 fights. It disrupted Ali’s rhythm and was definitely something other fighters tried to do. Cooper also showed how he was susceptible to a left hook which again other fights looked to exploit the longer they’d had to think about their tactics. It’s whether it was the 3 years out that changed Ali, or that his opponents had time to develop their skills against him.

That Ali adapted was testament to how good he was. The dedication he had to taking punishment was relentless, sparring in the build up to Foreman he often would go hours without throwing a punch, just conditioning his body to take punishment. Incredible.

 

[dangull]

Ali was definably my favourite sportsman to watch in and out of the ring. His interviews were sometimes more entertaining than some of his bouts.
I do question if he was the best heavyweight of all time though let alone the best boxer in all divisions. He wasn't the hardest puncher and maybe didn't face to many great fighters in his first stint as world champion before being stripped due to the Vietnam draft. Alot of people think the 3 year layoff took some speed away from him when he returned, but Tyson Fury has managed to come back maybe better after long periods out of the ring.
At the end of the day he did lose to Frazier and Norton when he came back which he avenged in close and brutal fights. He also lost 3 times after when well passed his best.
I also think he may have struggled against some of the modern huge heavyweights who came after like Holmes, Lewis, Klitschko, Fury and maybe Mike Tyson.

 

[Stat Brother]

Oh by the way you're all wrong.

Aleksandr Karelin.

End of thread.

 

[Swansman]

Oh by the way you're all wrong.

Aleksandr Karelin.

End of thread.

I did think of him actually, but with some members nervous (yes, really) about Putin hiring agents to subvert the core of UK politics - the North Stand Chat - picking one of Putins politicians in my opening post would have made the thread go elsewhere. Probably still would have picked Hakuho as no 1 though, but would be interesting to see these two fight for it.

Karelin is defo up there. Won pretty much everything he participated in.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

He's the most tested Track and Field athlete of all time, and has never failed a test.

That is not a fact. He may have failed tests in Jamaica, which Jamaica would have covered up.

Usain Bolt's teammates have tested positive, with the same coach and doctor. It makes no sense that the only clean athlete was faster than all his teammates who were boosting. If Bolt hadn't been doping, you'd be forgiven for thinking the drugs were making the others slower.

That's definitely not a fact. Unless you know otherwise? They don't appear to have covered up the positive tests of his teammates who were using the same coach and doctor.

The argument against Bolt basically boils down to:

It's a dirty sport so the fastest man in it must be dirty.
The fastest man's team mates are dirty so he must be dirty.

You can strongly suspect he's dirty but until he's proven otherwise you have to accept that he's clean and deserving of his accolades.

 

[BRIGHT ON Q]

Kipchoge?

 

[Triggaaar]

That's definitely not a fact. Unless you know otherwise?

I don't know what you mean.

They don't appear to have covered up the positive tests of his teammates who were using the same coach and doctor.

Yes they did cover up teammate tests too - but some teammates got caught at international competitions.

The argument against Bolt basically boils down to:

It's a dirty sport so the fastest man in it must be dirty.
The fastest man's team mates are dirty so he must be dirty.

There's more to it, as detailed in the link.

You can strongly suspect he's dirty but until he's proven otherwise you have to accept that he's clean and deserving of his accolades.

No, obviously I don't have to accept that. There are many examples in life where we don't accept that people are clean/innocent, despite not having a court to back up our opinions. Presumably you think Flo Jo, who still holds the women's 100m record that she set in 1988, was clean? And you think Jürgen Schult's (an East German athlete) discus record is clean too, etc etc. Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[A1X]

Eliud Kipchoge

Only human to run a marathon in under 2 hours

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

I don't know what you mean.
Yes they did cover up teammate tests too - but some teammates got caught at international competitions.

There's more to it, as detailed in the link.

No, obviously I don't have to accept that. There are many examples in life where we don't accept that people are clean/innocent, despite not having a court to back up our opinions. Presumably you think Flo Jo, who still holds the women's 100m record that she set in 1988, was clean? And you think Jürgen Schult's (an East German athlete) discus record is clean too, etc etc. Wake up and smell the coffee.

How do you do the breaking a quote into smaller quotes? I don't know how to do that so I'll answer in order and hope it makes sense.

You said that it wasn't a fact that Bolt wasn't the most tested track and field athlete and had never failed a test. you then said 'he may have failed in Jamaica who would have covered it up.'

You can't say Bolt never failing a test isn't fact and use supposition to refute it. Do you have proof that Jamaica covered up other athletes failed tests? For example this article highlights how five Jamaicans were caught doping at the Jamaican athletic championship. https://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-jamaican-athletes-cheated-20130906-story.html

I read the link. There's no definite proof there either, just a lot of suspicion.

Maybe accept is the wrong word although I can't think of a better one. Innocent until proven guilty? Bolt has been tested many many times. His tests have never come back dirty. Until they do he's the greatest sprinter of all time and clean.

I don't drink coffee but I suspect Flo Jo might have been on drugs. I don't know Jurgen Schult but if he was competing fr East Germany in the 80's then he probably was on steroids etc seeing as East Germany had a state run doping regime. I don't think Jamaica has a state run doping system. A lot of their failed tests seem to be grey area - for example two of the five in the link I posted had their bans lifted by CAS as the drug in their systems was an undeclared (by the manufacturer) ingredient in a medicine they were given.

 

[Triggaaar]

How do you do the breaking a quote into smaller quotes?

You just add QUOTE and /QUOTE around text, but put those inside square brackets.

I don't know how to do that so I'll answer in order and hope it makes sense.

I'm sure it will, I just like to split posts to make it clear what I'm replying to.

You said that it wasn't a fact that Bolt wasn't the most tested track and field athlete and had never failed a test. you then said 'he may have failed in Jamaica who would have covered it up.'

You can't say Bolt never failing a test isn't fact and use supposition to refute it.

I disagree. You're not aware that he's failed any tests, but that doesn't make it a fact that he hasn't.

Do you have proof that Jamaica covered up other athletes failed tests?

Proof - not on me, but WADA stopped Jamaica from controlling their own tests because they weren't doing their jobs. WADA knew what Jamaica were doing, but proving they were deliberately cheating is not so easy.

I read the link. There's no definite proof there either, just a lot of suspicion.

If it was proof, he'd have been banned. IMO you have to have an unrealistic level of faith to believe he was clean.

Innocent until proven guilty?

Jimmy Savile was never proven guilty, so should we all refrain from criticising him?

Bolt has been tested many many times. His tests have never come back dirty.

And that's not uncommon - athletes and their doctors know how much doping they can do, and when to stop in order to prevent getting caught. Just as the other athletes I've mentioned didn't get caught.

Until they do he's the greatest sprinter of all time and clean.

No - you (and some others I know) will see him as clean. But you seeing him as clean does not mean he is.

I don't drink coffee but I suspect Flo Jo might have been on drugs. I don't know Jurgen Schult but if he was competing fr East Germany in the 80's then he probably was on steroids etc seeing as East Germany had a state run doping regime.

Well that basically means our opinions are not so far apart. We have no proof that they were doping, but come on. It's really no different with Bolt.

I don't think Jamaica has a state run doping system.

I agree that the doping they have been guilty of is not likely to be state run, but it doesn't really matter whether it's coming direct from the state or from the team as a whole. Jamaica's success in sprinting has been a fantastic advert for the country as a whole, so there's really no great incentive for them to discredit their own achievements.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I disagree. You're not aware that he's failed any tests, but that doesn't make it a fact that he hasn't.
.

By that logic, it isn't a fact that <ANY athlete in ANY sport, EVER> hasn't cheated, so once again - let's just ban all sport, as basically, your position on this renders all competition pointless.

 

[Triggaaar]

By that logic, it isn't a fact that <ANY athlete in ANY sport, EVER> hasn't cheated

That is obviously typically true. If you want to argue that it is a fact that Usain Bolt has never taken drugs, then you don't understand what a fact is.

so once again - let's just ban all sport, as basically, your position on this renders all competition pointless.

Once again, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A lot of sportsmen do take drugs. That is a fact for you. If you want to stop watching sport, go ahead.