[Football] Best Manager?

[Cheshire Cat]

Johan Cruyff

 

[Brian Fantana]

Not exactly a managerial great though. Just won trophies with ready made teams.

I think that’s a harsh assessment, personally.

He’s the only manager to win three successive European Cup/Champions League titles, winning 13 out of 14 knockout ties along the way.

 

[stewart12]

That's a good shout.
If he'd managed to keep a lid on some of his personal views, he would probably have had a longer career as England manager. And who knows, maybe even won something

certainly

Euro 2000 was a tough one as it was a bit transitional but I reckon he could have potentially got more out of the 2002 squad than Sven did

 

[ConfusedGloryHunter]

For me Kenny Dalglish starts the ball rolling of great players taking on manager roles at a top club without any apprenticeship in between. He did OK.

His success is a bar by which others can be measured.

I suspect the lack of financial pressure for a modern footballing great is why most dont do so well. Why should a multi millionaire put themselves through the mill of learning a new job (which is much harder than simply kicking a ball) and in the full glare of the worlds media? And if they do give it a go, how many have the temperament to put in the hours and take all the psychological set backs that inevitably come their way. Much easier to get a job in media and slag off managers instead!

 

[lawros left foot]

He’s not my favourite but Southgate’s record as a player and manager has not been matched in modern times by any other Englishman.

Never a great player,and as a manager, can’t really be compared to any of the recent Foreign managers of cub or country.

Even in his playing career, could get to a final, but never win it.

 

[American Seagle]

I think that’s a harsh assessment, personally.

He’s the only manager to win three successive European Cup/Champions League titles, winning 13 out of 14 knockout ties along the way.

He is not exactly in the same frame as Cryuff or Wenger or even Pep who all changed the game as well.
I would even put "the special one" above him as he won things under many circumstances in many places.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

But a clear pattern developing. There are very few who excel at both.

Totally different skillsets required? What confuses me about this is that I can't think that there is any quality of a top level player which would make it less likely you would success as a manager. Surely the opposite is true? Football brain should help out in both disciplines and just on the sheer number of chances top players get to try out as a manager, you would have thought more would make it.

Perhaps there's an argument to be made that to become a truly great player, you have to have quite a singular, self-focused mindset.

To be a really good manager, on the other hand, you have to have empathy, to be able to understand what makes other people tick and how to get the best out of many different characters and personalities. To know why one person reacts positively to a bollocking, while another would retreat totally into his shell if you gave him the same treatment. You have to care infinitely about their performance and their lives, and to be able to know instinctively when something is wrong so as to be able to tackle issues before they arise, and to make them believe that you have their backs, even when they make mistakes.

You can learn about football and tactics if you've got the emotional intelligence to manage people, but I'm not sure you can learn emotional intelligence to the same extent if you're a footballing superstar who lacks the ability to empathise with others.

If you're lucky enough to have both, then you're probably Pep Guardiola.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I think that’s a harsh assessment, personally.

He’s the only manager to win three successive European Cup/Champions League titles, winning 13 out of 14 knockout ties along the way.

Agreed and there’s also no such thing as a “ready made team”. Zidane had to pick the right lineup, tactics, training regime for every match.

If you sacked Pep from Man City and put Glenn Tamplin in charge for a few weeks and then got them to play a two leg match against Klopp’s Liverpool, then Liverpool would win both legs handsomely

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

But a clear pattern developing. There are very few who excel at both.

Totally different skillsets required? What confuses me about this is that I can't think that there is any quality of a top level player which would make it less likely you would success as a manager. Surely the opposite is true? Football brain should help out in both disciplines and just on the sheer number of chances top players get to try out as a manager, you would have thought more would make it.

Could argue Nobby Horton was a success.

It's the idea a good Captain should become a good manager but again this doesn't appear the case.

Since the EPL and Sky money there's far less incentive for top players to try their hands at management. Many can top up their millions by talking shit on TV.

 

[Brian Fantana]

He is not exactly in the same frame as Cryuff or Wenger or even Pep who all changed the game as well.
I would even put "the special one" above him as he won things under many circumstances in many places.

Clearly Pep and Johan Cruyff are above Zidane in terms of managerial achievements. However, this discussion is about individuals who have done great things as both a player and a manager, which ZZ undoubtedly has. (Your assertion that he won things with a 'ready made team' doesn't stand up to scrunity when other managers, notably Lopetegui, struggled with the same group of players in 18/19). Neither Wenger or Mourinho did anything as players, so IMO aren't really relevant for this discussion.

 

[Weststander]

Johan Cruyff

This.

English ... I'd say Venables (for his club football too).

 

[stewart12]

Perhaps there's an argument to be made that to become a truly great player, you have to have quite a singular, self-focused mindset.

To be a really good manager, on the other hand, you have to have empathy, to be able to understand what makes other people tick and how to get the best out of many different characters and personalities. To know why one person reacts positively to a bollocking, while another would retreat totally into his shell if you gave him the same treatment. You have to care infinitely about their performance and their lives, and to be able to know instinctively when something is wrong so as to be able to tackle issues before they arise, and to make them believe that you have their backs, even when they make mistakes.

You can learn about football and tactics if you've got the emotional intelligence to manage people, but I'm not sure you can learn emotional intelligence to the same extent if you're a footballing superstar who lacks the ability to empathise with others.

If you're lucky enough to have both, then you're probably Pep Guardiola.

yes and there's also the situation where a lot of top level players go into management and don't quite appreciate that the guys they're managing aren't at their level- Roy Keane is an example of that who had freakishly high standards as a player. It's been said of Hoddle that he was always the best player in training sessions, even as England manager

 

[peterward]

Hoddle was undeniably a great player, and was not a bad manager (of Swindon, Chelsea or England)

Agree and a few former pros rave about his time and tactical ability as England manager.

He didn't lose that job based on his managerial ability or results but on his weird comments that disabled people may be disabled based on Karma for sins in past lives.

 

[Brian Fantana]

yes and there's also the situation where a lot of top level players go into management and don't quite appreciate that the guys they're managing aren't at their level- Roy Keane is an example of that who had freakishly high standards as a player. It's been said of Hoddle that he was always the best player in training sessions, even as England manager

It's an interesting point and something that Vincent Kompany clearly managed to overcome in the Championship.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

I think it's quite funny when the media hype up great players and try to convince the world that they're going to be great managers. Firstly because history shows that isn't often the case, and secondly because there was nothing whatsoever about Steven Gerrard (for example) when he was a player that ever made me think he could be the kind of man-manager other players need.

Anyone can go "Grrrrrrr" and "come on lads" and pump their fists on the pitch to inspire their team mates as a player. Being a manager is a lot more nuanced than that.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

It's an interesting point and something that Vincent Kompany clearly managed to overcome in the Championship.

If you hear Kompany speak, it's very clear that he's a people person. You can see that in how he's looked after Lyle Foster, for example. Those Burnley players will respect his playing career no end, of course, but it's what he's like with them on a human level that got them flying last season, not how many titles he won.

 

[Brovion]

I think the general consensus is that average/poor players tend overall to make the best managers. The reason for that being is because that during their playing careers they had to work much harder and pay more attention than their more gifted colleagues did in order to try and get an edge and maintain a career.

Also forwards tend not to make good managers as they've spent their careers simply being focussed on goal-scoring and taking chances rather than analysing the overall game.

And yes I know there are individual exceptions. I'm talking in general.

 

[Weststander]

I think it's quite funny when the media hype up great players and try to convince the world that they're going to be great managers. Firstly because history shows that isn't often the case, and secondly because there was nothing whatsoever about Steven Gerrard (for example) when he was a player that ever made me think he could be the kind of man-manager other players need.

Anyone can go "Grrrrrrr" and "come on lads" and pump their fists on the pitch to inspire their team mates as a player. Being a manager is a lot more nuanced than that.

What about Fat Frank's A'levels?

 

[stewart12]

Agree and a few former pros rave about his time and tactical ability as England manager.

He didn't lose that job based on his managerial ability or results but on his weird comments that disabled people may be disabled based on Karma for sins in past lives.

yes and ultimately I think it was his lack of experience that told him it was a good idea to blab his mental views to the media instead of keeping it to himself. Tactically he was definitely good but did seem to struggle as a man manager

I'm wondering who else was in the frame in 1996? Chelsea finished 11th in the 95/96 season. There were quite a few English managers who finished higher- Kevin Keegan, Roy Evans, Brian Little, Joe Royle, Ray Harford, Gerry Francis, Frank Clark & Harry Redknapp, were none of them better options?

 

[Brian Fantana]

If we were to re-visit this conversation in 5 years time, it would be interesting to see where Michael Carrick features. Showing flashes of promise with Boro, but their results do seem to seesaw quite a bit too.