clapham_gull
Legacy Fan
- Aug 20, 2003
- 25,885
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Bernard Ingham refuses to apologise for views on Hillsborough
- Thread starter Kumquat
- Start date
The Modfather
New member
Always thought that he was a nasty piece of work when he was Thatchers mouthpiece back in the 80's, and this just reinforces my opinion.
Mo Gosfield
Well-known member
- Aug 11, 2010
- 6,364
Heysel hasn't been forgotten by some of us. Directly caused by Liverpool followers charging the Italians in their enclosure and the subsequent collapse of a wall. Nearly 40 lives lost. Sickening and appalling behaviour by yobs abroad.
Hillsborough is a totally separate issue and retains a massively higher profile. I've heard Liverpool fans talking about Heysel over the years but it isn't spoken about for long. It is still an underlying embarrassment and shame to them and they don't want to spend too much time talking about it.
Lord Bracknell
On fire
It was Thatcher and Ingham who were egging on the police and the media to deliver the "drunken fans to blame" message right from the start. It's not so much that Ingham "believed" the initial reports. He was the spin doctor behind them.
- Jul 7, 2003
- 47,645
Indeed. Of all the Hillsborough issues to run with, the Liverpool Echo picks one that is ancient, irrelevant and entirely old hat.
I bet if you picked a random collection of a thousand people from around the country you could still find plenty who had opinions about the Hillsborough disaster which differ from that of the official report and of the families: there are people on here who have opinions that vary to different degrees for crying out loud. They may not be right, they may be misguided, they may have their own agendas entirely, but that's all they are, opinions.
Dredging up some unimportant old fart because of comments he made in 1996 (?) seems a pointless exercise for me and one designed for no purpose other than shifting more papers.
Edit: written before I saw LB's post, but nonetheless, I still wonder how important or helpful it is that it is brought up now.
glasfryn
cleaning up cat sick
thatcher's right hand man what else would you expect?
it just annoys me the way liverpool brush the heysel disaster under the carpet when their fans killed 39 Juventus supporters. The deaths of these supporters shouldn't just be associated with one club and prioritised over another tragedy, they were sad events regardless of who you supported.
Please don't be ridiculous. I was, as is obvious in my post, pontificating how the general population of different cities have acted to different but not dissimilar tragedies.
Only Liverpool has made it a personal issue about all residents rather than just about the victims and their families. The people of Liverpool clearly feel they are collectively victims of the media, politicians, the Police and anybody else who has ever suggested that every Liverpool football fan is anything but an angel. Yet Liverpool fans were responsible for many deaths at Heysel. Not the Police, not the media and not opposing fans but the Liverpool fans. English clubs were banned from Europe for many years and Liverpool fans were brought into serious disrepute. It turnd out to be wrong but its perhaps not surprising that most people, including the media, politicians and the police, assumed that Hillsborough was caused by Liverpool fans behaving badly.
All of this is in the past and we now know the truth thanks to the incredible tenacity and courage shown by the ivctims families qnd their friends. But as sections of the Liverpool media and population are determined to keep their personal attacks (eg Bingham) and boycotts (the sun) going then it seems that Heysel should be remembered to keep context and perspective.
But may I repeat, my comments concern the wider population NOT the victims of the tragedies and their loved ones
Seagull over Canaryland
Well-known member
This is a non-story. A bit desperate to drag some old boy out of his dotage and get him to make some insensitive quotes.
We already know that the FA were at fault for allowing the match to be played at a ground where there were existing safety concerns, that the tragedy was largely caused by acts or omissions by the Police and more recently that many of the casualties might have been saved if robust contingency plans had been in place. But this current campaign seems driven by a desperation in some quarters to attach 'blame' for Hillsborough on Thatcher (almost as if she caused the tragedy) - and then keep it simmering in the public domain as long as possible. I prefer to wait until any hard objective evidence emerges at the new inquest to verify or otherwise that (as alleged by some) Mrs T.'s hands are all over the original investigation or inquiry.
That doesn't ignore that Government spin doctors are ruthless pieces of work irrespective of their political persuasion. They do the shadowy behind the scenes stuff that Ministers can't be seen to do in public in order to manipulate anything that suits the agenda of the day. Smoke and mirrors. If a particular angle needs planting in the media or someone needs a 'knife in the back', its what they are paid to do. It has always been the case. Doesn't make it right and of course occasionally their role in stuff can unravel and expose them for being devious and malicious peddlers of filth. It's a dark art. However there was also a mutual hate between Liverpool and the Tories that seemed to exist even before Hillsborough and is being nicely perpetuated by this to suit the wider agenda. For me it does not dignify the memory of the victims of the tragedy, who should never be overlooked.
We already know that the FA were at fault for allowing the match to be played at a ground where there were existing safety concerns, that the tragedy was largely caused by acts or omissions by the Police and more recently that many of the casualties might have been saved if robust contingency plans had been in place. But this current campaign seems driven by a desperation in some quarters to attach 'blame' for Hillsborough on Thatcher (almost as if she caused the tragedy) - and then keep it simmering in the public domain as long as possible. I prefer to wait until any hard objective evidence emerges at the new inquest to verify or otherwise that (as alleged by some) Mrs T.'s hands are all over the original investigation or inquiry.
That doesn't ignore that Government spin doctors are ruthless pieces of work irrespective of their political persuasion. They do the shadowy behind the scenes stuff that Ministers can't be seen to do in public in order to manipulate anything that suits the agenda of the day. Smoke and mirrors. If a particular angle needs planting in the media or someone needs a 'knife in the back', its what they are paid to do. It has always been the case. Doesn't make it right and of course occasionally their role in stuff can unravel and expose them for being devious and malicious peddlers of filth. It's a dark art. However there was also a mutual hate between Liverpool and the Tories that seemed to exist even before Hillsborough and is being nicely perpetuated by this to suit the wider agenda. For me it does not dignify the memory of the victims of the tragedy, who should never be overlooked.
One could easily say the same or worse about Blair's right hand man,Alastair Campbell!
Lord Bracknell
On fire
Nobody is blaming Thatcher for the tragedy itself. But there is a very good case for blaming successive governments for the failure to deliver either justice or the truth to the families of the victims. And there is clear evidence in the recent report that the refusal to investigate the events properly started with Thatcher and Ingham, who preferred to pursue their own agenda, rather than seek out the truth.
Seagull over Canaryland
Well-known member
Clearly Thatcher / Ingram will not emerge from this untainted and I wonder who was ultimately behind the doctoring of witness statements given by dozens of Police Officers?
Ironically it does rather suit the present Governments agenda for yet another adverse story that paints the Police in a bad light so that the reforms they wish to impose get an easier ride.