[Brighton] Benfield Primary School Petition

[BNthree]

Signed as the Portslade/West Hove area seems to have growing numbers of young families and the school places will be needed.

 

[DumLum]

Done.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Thanks to everyone that has signed, it really means a lot to everyone involved with the school, and got a lot of people rallying around and coming together to support it which is great.

With paper signatures as well, we're approaching our 1250 target pretty quickly.

 

[Murray 17]

I see Benfield has been allocated 31 children for 2018. The worst number they could get. Why wasn't that child allocated a place at another school? Now the school needs to pay for another teacher, teaching assistant, heat and light another classroom etc etc. An already tight budget just got worse. More years of struggling.

Hertford Infants got 44 - not ideal, but slightly better.

The system is crazy.

 

[surrey jim]

I see Benfield has been allocated 31 children for 2018. The worst number they could get. Why wasn't that child allocated a place at another school? Now the school needs to pay for another teacher, teaching assistant, heat and light another classroom etc etc. An already tight budget just got worse. More years of struggling.

Hertford Infants got 44 - not ideal, but slightly better.

The system is crazy.

Can they not put 31 into one class rather than two classes of 15/16 pupils? Is there an upper number of children permitted per class?

 

[Bold Seagull]

I see Benfield has been allocated 31 children for 2018. The worst number they could get. Why wasn't that child allocated a place at another school? Now the school needs to pay for another teacher, teaching assistant, heat and light another classroom etc etc. An already tight budget just got worse. More years of struggling.

Hertford Infants got 44 - not ideal, but slightly better.

The system is crazy.

This isn't true. There are lawful ways to accommodate a primary school class size over 30 without the expense of running a whole separate classroom, another teacher, teaching assistant etc.

 

[Murray 17]

This isn't true. There are lawful ways to accommodate a primary school class size over 30 without the expense of running a whole separate classroom, another teacher, teaching assistant etc.

Let's hope they do then, otherwise that 31st child has effectively cost a school £50-£60k in wages/NI contributions and other costs.

 

[Murray 17]

Can they not put 31 into one class rather than two classes of 15/16 pupils? Is there an upper number of children permitted per class?

Not for an infant class, as the upper limit is 30. The school would need to have mixed year groups, so Reception children would be put in with the younger Year 1 children.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Let's hope they do then, otherwise that 31st child has effectively cost a school £50-£60k in wages/NI contributions and other costs.

I can tell you they do. Having been a governor on finance and resources for the passed 5 years - I can tell you the school has been in deficit and is projected to remain so. The argument about not reducing the PAN for the school wasn't to say the school was suddenly going to have an intake of 50 or 60 kids, it was to say the school operates a prudent budget and manages its resources accordingly without suddenly being reduced to a single form entry. Progress data puts Benfield in one of the top Primary schools in the city for the rate at which each pupil progresses from their individual start point. It also manages a diverse complex mix of backgrounds, whether cultural, economic or otherwise.

The council have already said single form entry Primary schools are inefficient and should be phased out because for a 30 form entry, you still need administration costs etc. etc. The Portslade Cluster of Primary schools already has 3 single form entry Primaries, had they reduced Benfield, the only larger option for parents not wanting a single form entry would have been St Nicks, a church school.

Anyway, there will be a lot of movement on the numbers before September as various appeals, changes of mind etc. are processed. Benfield struggles with a perceived reputation issue, that if you actually dig into the data and achievements is completely unwarranted, because the data does support it being one of the strongest in the area, and the city - hence why it is now a Teaching School, leading an alliance of over 20 Primary schools in the city.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I went to St Nick's in the 60s. It had two classes per year, and we took all our lessons in the same class. There was no mixing, so these were streams. We stayed in stream for 4 years. 14 of my class of 32 passed the eleven plus. None of the other class passed. That was when I realised we had been streamed by 'ability' (although I don't ever recall being tested for stream selection). Is this the same concept as the 'two forms' that is mentioned in this thread?

 

[Bold Seagull]

I went to St Nick's in the 60s. It had two classes per year, and we took all our lessons in the same class. There was no mixing, so these were streams. We stayed in stream for 4 years. 14 of my class of 32 passed the eleven plus. None of the other class passed. That was when I realised we had been streamed by 'ability' (although I don't ever recall being tested for stream selection). Is this the same concept as the 'two forms' that is mentioned in this thread?

No, 2 form entry means you have the capacity for 2 classes of 30 children with their own teacher, class room, assistants and resources. It would be rare to have streaming at Primary, and the 2 classes would stay as 2 separate entities for their learning. A lot of schools would then mix the classes at the start of each year to ensure there is a balance, i.e. if you have 4 disruptive kids all in one class, you'd look to split them if the other class didn't have any.

 

[Murray 17]

I can tell you they do. Having been a governor on finance and resources for the passed 5 years - I can tell you the school has been in deficit and is projected to remain so. The argument about not reducing the PAN for the school wasn't to say the school was suddenly going to have an intake of 50 or 60 kids, it was to say the school operates a prudent budget and manages its resources accordingly without suddenly being reduced to a single form entry. Progress data puts Benfield in one of the top Primary schools in the city for the rate at which each pupil progresses from their individual start point. It also manages a diverse complex mix of backgrounds, whether cultural, economic or otherwise.

The council have already said single form entry Primary schools are inefficient and should be phased out because for a 30 form entry, you still need administration costs etc. etc. The Portslade Cluster of Primary schools already has 3 single form entry Primaries, had they reduced Benfield, the only larger option for parents not wanting a single form entry would have been St Nicks, a church school.

Anyway, there will be a lot of movement on the numbers before September as various appeals, changes of mind etc. are processed. Benfield struggles with a perceived reputation issue, that if you actually dig into the data and achievements is completely unwarranted, because the data does support it being one of the strongest in the area, and the city - hence why it is now a Teaching School, leading an alliance of over 20 Primary schools in the city.

I know you are a big fan of Benfield, and you make many points in support of them.

Balancing it up a bit though, Benfield does move children on, but their starting point is generally low. If I was a parent of a low-achieving child, I would consider that school. At the top end though, they are not as good.

Also, the school is situated in a low-density of population. It is surrounded by an industrial estate, a railway line, a large park, a cemetery, a golf course and Sainsbury's. It has always had a low number intake, and this year, like previous years, has struggled to get 30 first choice applications.

Whether or not the Council thinks 1 form entry schools are inefficient, they couldn't possibly be phased out.

I think the opportunity to go 1 form for Benfield was a good one (unless you think mixed-age classes are good). I also appreciate that the school keeps its budget in check - but think about how much more money could be spent on the current pupils if those 1 or 2 children over the 30 weren't admitted each year.

Being a 'teaching' school is an interesting concept - what happens after the funding ends?

Hertford are a slightly different case, as historically they have achieved 50-60 children regularly. 44 children this year will put another strain on their budget, but not as much as 31 will.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I know you are a big fan of Benfield, and you make many points in support of them.

Balancing it up a bit though, Benfield does move children on, but their starting point is generally low. If I was a parent of a low-achieving child, I would consider that school. At the top end though, they are not as good.

Also, the school is situated in a low-density of population. It is surrounded by an industrial estate, a railway line, a large park, a cemetery, a golf course and Sainsbury's. It has always had a low number intake, and this year, like previous years, has struggled to get 30 first choice applications.

Whether or not the Council thinks 1 form entry schools are inefficient, they couldn't possibly be phased out.

I think the opportunity to go 1 form for Benfield was a good one (unless you think mixed-age classes are good). I also appreciate that the school keeps its budget in check - but think about how much more money could be spent on the current pupils if those 1 or 2 children over the 30 weren't admitted each year.

Being a 'teaching' school is an interesting concept - what happens after the funding ends?

Hertford are a slightly different case, as historically they have achieved 50-60 children regularly. 44 children this year will put another strain on their budget, but not as much as 31 will.

Benfield has only been a 2 form entry Primary for 6 years, it was a Junior school before that when Brackenbury was Portslade Infant School as was St Peter's.

Your first sentence is also completely wrong, it doesn't move people on, but does have a migration of pupils who move on for a variety of reasons. You cannot argue the school struggles for numbers and then suggest they move people on. What is your basis for this? And what is the basis for your top end achievement, it cannot be the data.

There wouldn't be anymore money because the government funding formula is per pupil between 30 or 31. As previously said, you can manage that without an additional classroom and it doesn't require a mixed year group either.

Each Primary School in the city is struggling with numbers because we have too many Primary places for a dip in the numbers. If you really want to look at geographic anomalies, why have 2 Primary Schools directly adjacent to each other on a busy highway junction with less density around them than Benfield?

Your also wrong on the strain on the budget, 30 to around 36 is manageable because you can staff that without creating a new class. 36 to around 46 is tough because you do need the 2nd class, but the funding leaves you short. You basically want to be either sub 36, or over 46. Its the in-between that hurts your budget the most.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No, 2 form entry means you have the capacity for 2 classes of 30 children with their own teacher, class room, assistants and resources. It would be rare to have streaming at Primary, and the 2 classes would stay as 2 separate entities for their learning. A lot of schools would then mix the classes at the start of each year to ensure there is a balance, i.e. if you have 4 disruptive kids all in one class, you'd look to split them if the other class didn't have any.

I see. Thanks.

 

[Murray 17]

Benfield has only been a 2 form entry Primary for 6 years, it was a Junior school before that when Brackenbury was Portslade Infant School as was St Peter's.

Your first sentence is also completely wrong, it doesn't move people on, but does have a migration of pupils who move on for a variety of reasons. You cannot argue the school struggles for numbers and then suggest they move people on. What is your basis for this? And what is the basis for your top end achievement, it cannot be the data.

There wouldn't be anymore money because the government funding formula is per pupil between 30 or 31. As previously said, you can manage that without an additional classroom and it doesn't require a mixed year group either.

Each Primary School in the city is struggling with numbers because we have too many Primary places for a dip in the numbers. If you really want to look at geographic anomalies, why have 2 Primary Schools directly adjacent to each other on a busy highway junction with less density around them than Benfield?

Your also wrong on the strain on the budget, 30 to around 36 is manageable because you can staff that without creating a new class. 36 to around 46 is tough because you do need the 2nd class, but the funding leaves you short. You basically want to be either sub 36, or over 46. Its the in-between that hurts your budget the most.

When I said, 'move children on', I meant help them make progress. Ironically though, as there are always places at Benfield, pupils new to Hove usually end up there, whilst waiting for a place nearer to home. I have heard that some stay a matter of months, if not weeks.

What position did they come in the performance tables then? I checked them a few months ago, and it wasn't very high (I'm not talking about progress, just top-end achievement).

 

[Bold Seagull]

When I said, 'move children on', I meant help them make progress. Ironically though, as there are always places at Benfield, pupils new to Hove usually end up there, whilst waiting for a place nearer to home. I have heard that some stay a matter of months, if not weeks.

What position did they come in the performance tables then? I checked them a few months ago, and it wasn't very high (I'm not talking about progress, just top-end achievement).

Okay, I misread that.

Top end achievement has to be relevant to progress. However good a school is, results are always linked to economic, social and cultural background, it is an inescapable fact and why Grammar and Private school results for that matter in terms of achievement are often a mask to how good a school is at teaching. Are the Academically More Able (AMA) at Benfield going on to achieve good results at Benfield, the answer is yes, and they make above average progress. Is the school going to have a high number of top end achievers compared to a school in a more affluent area, no because of a high number of English as 2nd language, pupil premium, etc.

If you judge a school only on performance tables, that is a very narrow field of judgement of how good a school that is.

 

[Murray 17]

They won their battle to keep 60 places available each year, but as predicted, couldn't get anywhere near filling them. 15 spaces still going spare, if anyone wants one!

 

[swindonseagull]

Done, from a Ken Beard era pupil

Me too

 

[McTavish]

They won their battle to keep 60 places available each year, but as predicted, couldn't get anywhere near filling them. 15 spaces still going spare, if anyone wants one!

So from 31 to 45 in one year - is that correct?