Benefits and tax: astounding graphic

[binky]

So how much of the big red circle is...
Evasion
Avoidance
Uncollected

Lets not forget that under avoidance is the vast amount of money individuals have invested in ISAs, probably (if the infographic has been assembled by a leftie with an axe to grind), it also includes pension tax relief, possibly all tax reliefs.

What does uncollected mean? Is this a result of HMRC incompetence? does it include avoided and evaded or something other than those categories.

It seems to me the inforgraphic has been put together by some person or organisation with an axe to grind.

Until we can see accurate figures, presented in an unobfuscated way, we cannot have a serious debate.
Unfortunately, everyone with access to the unexpurgated numbers seems to have a vested interest in not publishing them in an easily consumable, accurate way.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So how much of the big red circle is...
Evasion
Avoidance
Uncollected

Lets not forget that under avoidance is the vast amount of money individuals have invested in ISAs, probably (if the infographic has been assembled by a leftie with an axe to grind), it also includes pension tax relief, possibly all tax reliefs.

What does uncollected mean? Is this a result of HMRC incompetence? does it include avoided and evaded or something other than those categories.

It seems to me the inforgraphic has been put together by some person or organisation with an axe to grind.

Until we can see accurate figures, presented in an unobfuscated way, we cannot have a serious debate.
Unfortunately, everyone with access to the unexpurgated numbers seems to have a vested interest in not publishing them in an easily consumable, accurate way.

As I said previously, the PCS is as left wing as they come.

 

[Gwylan]

I wasn't just talking about the largest like Starbucks or Amazon, but about any corporation (regardless of size and number of employees) that may avoid paying some or all the tax that they could have potentially been liable for. I

Exactly. I worked for a small company that deducted tax and NI from its employees but instead of passing it on to the Inland Revenue just pocketed it. I didn't pay tax or NI for three years - even though it appeared on my payslip. Some employees were there for 10 years and had their tax going into the company's coffers. If an individual took that sort of money, HMRC would be knocking down the doors but if a company does it, then no action will be taken

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Meanwhile i have just received this.
ADUR DISTRICT COUNCIL HOUSING DEPARTMENT has REFUSED a request for housing from 24th April 2014 from my next door neighbour's Daughter and Son-In-Law and their 3 year old daughter. The Son-In-Law is a Corporal in The Queen's Hussars currently stationed in Paderborn Germany, his wife is also employed by the Family Service Organisation over there.. He is due to retire from the Army on that date having completed TWO tours in Iraq and ONE in Afghanistan.. Adur District Council INSIST that he MUST BE HOMELESS BEFORE THEY CAN CONSIDER HIS APPLICATION FOR HOUSING.

That's quite normal. I married my ex who was in the forces in 1969. He came out in 1971, we returned to his home town, and then went on the waiting list. We got a house 6 weeks later but couldn't apply until we were homeless. In the meantime, we lived with my inlaws.

 

[BLOCK F]

Exactly. I worked for a small company that deducted tax and NI from its employees but instead of passing it on to the Inland Revenue just pocketed it. I didn't pay tax or NI for three years - even though it appeared on my payslip. Some employees were there for 10 years and had their tax going into the company's coffers. If an individual took that sort of money, HMRC would be knocking down the doors but if a company does it, then no action will be taken

Do you really believe that...'if a company does it,then no action will be taken'.
Maybe the rogues running your company got away with it,but get real!!!

 

[drew]

They are focussing on all those things.....what is your point, you can't solve this all at once, small steps.

By the way, there are more people investigating benefit fraud because potentially there are 30 million fraudsters....that as opposed to 300 people investigating tax evasion from a much smaller pool of potential transgressors.

Come back when you can read please...... POTENTIALLY...!!

Doesn't make sense because, equally, anyone earning money could be evading tax, whether that be, allegedly, Vodaphone, Starbucks or Google or just the bloke down the road doing cash in hand jobs. How many people could be evading tax, well anyone so that makes about 60,000,000.

The economics suggest the emphasis of investigations should be where the best financial gain would be for the country and that would appear to be Tax Avoidance, even by the conservative estimates of HMRC. I think I read somewhere that for every pound spent on investigating tax fraud, HMRC gets £9 back yet the government reduced their budget and made thousands redundant!!!!! I think the equivalent for benefit fraud is for every £1 spent they get back £3. The ratios are better and the potential return is better so it is a no brainer!!!! Well perhaps not to all.

 

[BLOCK F]

'The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of a prison wall.' Denis Healey.

That quote could be interpreted in a number of different ways.

 

[Gwylan]

Do you really believe that...'if a company does it,then no action will be taken'.
Maybe the rogues running your company got away with it,but get real!!!

Eh? There was nothing special about the company I worked for. All the employees made statements to the Revenue and that was it. The company carried on trading - in fact, a few years after all this, I got a call from an employee of the firm who found that his tax and NI had been deducted and not passed on to the Revenue.

So, yes, I do know that companies get away with it. Perhaps you should "get real"

 

[BLOCK F]

So you vote for what's good for you and your family, as opposed to the common good. Now I understand.

Just out of interest,Mach,who do you vote for?Communist Party maybe?
Got to remember that even if one agrees that one should vote for the common good,individuals will disagree as to which party or organisation is best for the common good.

 

[BLOCK F]

Eh? There was nothing special about the company I worked for. All the employees made statements to the Revenue and that was it. The company carried on trading - in fact, a few years after all this, I got a call from an employee of the firm who found that his tax and NI had been deducted and not passed on to the Revenue.

So, yes, I do know that companies get away with it. Perhaps you should "get real"

Obviously I do not know the full details of your company ,but in my experience this is certainly not the norm.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Exactly. I worked for a small company that deducted tax and NI from its employees but instead of passing it on to the Inland Revenue just pocketed it. I didn't pay tax or NI for three years - even though it appeared on my payslip. Some employees were there for 10 years and had their tax going into the company's coffers. If an individual took that sort of money, HMRC would be knocking down the doors but if a company does it, then no action will be taken

How many football clubs have got away with deducting stoppages and not handing it over to Inland Revenue/HMRC punctually then go into administration ?

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

If you're doing a chart to show differences, the chart needs to be accurate, otherwise you're just lying. Surely they have a bit of software that can create a chart, and not just ask a designer to create a couple of blobs.

You would hope so however they are using the chart to emphasise their point and suit their agenda rather than be accurate

 

[Gwylan]

Obviously I do not know the full details of your company ,but in my experience this is certainly not the norm.

It's my only experience of working for a small company and I was amazed at the attitude of the Revenue. They had seven sworn affidavits from employees and took no action.

The owners are still trading BTW, no idea whether they're now paying any tax or not. I do know that when I left, he stopped my final salary cheque when I left the building so I had no money for a month so he doesn't have the purest of morals

 

[Plastic-Fantastic]

The stats on benefit overpayments are misleading, in that lots of incidents that count as overpayments aren't really what most people would consider an overpayment. For example, if a JCP employee forgets to tick a box on the system to say a claimant has provided adequate evidence of jobsearch activities when someone has signed on, then it counts as an overpayment because it appears that the claimant has not fulfilled the conditions of claiming and has therefore been paid benefit they are not entitled too.

The DWP is its own worst enemy in that respect, as they choose to run theae checks and record it as an overpayment, when in.most cases it's not.

Regardless, it's hard to compare the relative merits of tax evasion with benefit fraud. Even if companies like Vodafone paid no tax (which I am not saying is desirable by the way!) they are still adding value to society by way of providng a service that people want and by creating jobs and infrastructure. Benefit claimants on the other hand are usually economically inactive and only taking from the 'system'.

 

[Triggaaar]

You would hope so however they are using the chart to emphasise their point and suit their agenda rather than be accurate

Exactly, which I why I switched off and ignored whatever they were trying to say.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

I always wondered why they couldn't solve outstanding tax and unemployment at the same time. If you get a person to chase unpaid tax and then use the first 20k to pay them. Theres potentially no extra cash coming in however less going out and you are employing more people so more people have money to spend therefore improving the economy.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Do you really believe that...'if a company does it,then no action will be taken'.
Maybe the rogues running your company got away with it,but get real!!!

How many football clubs have got away with deducting stoppages and not handing it over to Inland Revenue/HMRC punctually then go into administration ?

This.

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm curious, where does Tax Justice and PCS get that fantastic number from thats so wildly different from the official numbers?

Do i also assume the subtext to this that focusing on all the tax evasion and avoidance (otherwise known as compliance), we should forget about any benefit fraud, just allow those that wish to claim and carry on?

 

[Twinkle Toes]

...and that would be exactly right, until all 20k turn up and the police get a view of the attendees, and the mood of the attendees, who knows what could happen.

You want to check your toilet cistern for mini sub-aqua Ninja Assassins. Don't say you weren't warned ...

 

[drew]

I find it interesting that the areas in the chart have been completely misrepresented. Comparing the area of the light blue circle (£16 billion) to the red circle, the red circle is twice as large as it should be. Idiots.

Not sure if someone has commented by maybe they are comparing the light blue circle with the dark blue bearing in mind they are both based on HMRC estimates. Not getting out the laser measuring tool but would estimate the light blue to have a diameter just over half that of the dark blue which seems to equate to the same ratio of 16 to 30! Just from a visual observation again, it would seem that the next one down, £1.6b is about a 10th of the light blue.

Semantics aside, the message is quite clear.