I thought this was about the Ben White's and JMD's of this world, I am not too bothered about the Sam Gallaghers, Reeds and Mcqueens, that quite likely already have there mortgage paid off on their swanky houses and lengthy contracts, how old are White and JMD 19 years old ?? your examples are 22-23 their race is almost run when it comes to discussing young player development in the context of this thread.
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Ben White
- Thread starter Bingo
- Start date
I thought this was about the Ben White's and JMD's of this world, I am not too bothered about the Sam Gallaghers, Reeds and Mcqueens, that quite likely already have there mortgage paid off on their swanky houses and lengthy contracts, how old are White and JMD 19 years old ?? your examples are 22-23 their race is almost run when it comes to discussing young player development in the context of this thread.
They are NOW you daft clown! Isgrove was 19 when loaned to Peterborough / Gallagher 19 when loaned to MK Dons / Stephens 19 when loaned to Swindon / McQueen 20 when loaned to Southend
You just hold on both Gallagher, Isgrove and Reed made their first team debuts prior to any loans and as yet have not played since, Stephens and Mcqueen have indeed used loans as a pathway to the first team, but look at Southampton's professional roster, their young professionals are not being loaned out, the 18, 19 and 20 year olds seem to stay within their Academy, loans have its uses but it needn't be part of every young players development, if they can find regular football within a Cat 1 system with top coaches, players and managers it should be able to deliver better outcomes than going and making a few substitute appearance at League One.
Of course there are scenarios where it is preferable, best option is the club really fancy you but cannot find a first team starting place for you just yet, a loan and regular game time at a high end club that is obviously better than your Cat 1 U23's is fine, then theres if you have already played games for the first team but are currently out of favour then go on loan for a move away and then the worst is when your club cannot find regular games within the academy so loans you out to relatively low level teams.
AZ Gull
@SeagullsAcademy @seagullsacademy.bsky.social
Ben White's contract was extended in January. I'm struggling to believe that the Albion did that just so that they could send him out on loan to get experience so that they could find him a career outside of Albion.
I am not saying they have, I am saying that the Academy system that spends £60 000 a week should be able to create an environment that might replicate Newport County's matchday experience, I hear the usual blather about it will make a man of him, playing for points, playing for the managers job, I get it, I know it.
But my point is that Cat 1 Academys shouldnt be trumped by a League Two club by taking young talent out of this first class environment (if it is) and land a young player into a club with a Cat 4 status, even accepting he will be with the first team.
I am not so sure of the standard of League Two, I saw Dagenham and Redbridge last year which I had hoped was an appropriate minmum level for a prospective talent, but I changed my mind in five minutes it was quite pitiful.
FatSuperman
Well-known member
- Feb 25, 2016
- 2,923
I love how you are comparing our 'multi million' academy training environment with lower league training environments. Clearly that is not what the aim of a loan is. You should be comparing their development at our 'multi million' academy training environments versus the development playing competitive matches, in the lower leagues.
Your use of 10 Southampton players that haven't gone on loan, the majority of which also have never played in the first team is hardly backing up your view.
But the main thing I find confusing is that you don't appear to be making much of a point. You keep qualifying your statements with 'we don't know what the club is thinking with regards to these players'. The spirit of what you are saying seems to be; we should keep our academy products at our 'multi million' academy and work the right ones into the first team from there. You know, maybe you are correct, but it seems that all those experts you mentioned earlier take a different approach, at most academies. They might be wrong, we'll find out in the fullness of time.
Your use of 10 Southampton players that haven't gone on loan, the majority of which also have never played in the first team is hardly backing up your view.
But the main thing I find confusing is that you don't appear to be making much of a point. You keep qualifying your statements with 'we don't know what the club is thinking with regards to these players'. The spirit of what you are saying seems to be; we should keep our academy products at our 'multi million' academy and work the right ones into the first team from there. You know, maybe you are correct, but it seems that all those experts you mentioned earlier take a different approach, at most academies. They might be wrong, we'll find out in the fullness of time.
You can only possibly know the value or reason of any loan if you know what the medium term opinion that his club has of that player, it seems that any loan is met with posters nearly always saying, 'yep that will be good for him'
All loans are not the same, we saw young players a couple of years ago all go on loan, Worthing, Bognor, Maidstone etc etc, all those players were released at the end of that season, they werent fancied and weren't even afforded a starting place in our U23's, but posters on here were still saying that 'it will do them good etc etc' it was a football engineering loan of soon to be released players.
Simarly you can get seasoned pro's that the first team manager has lost faith in or just naturally overtaken by other players, their loans are a different animal too, they go to help another team usually lower and try and muster up interest from other clubs or that same club, its really not a developmental loan, its a business loan.
Then we have the loan which I understand is a 'good' loan, when a young prospect that is well regarded by his club, is seen to be good enough to start in another clubs team, typically Premier to Championship, they are undeniably experiencing a higher level that any U23's Cat 1 could offer, I see that one.
But my main point was that if you are seriously considering a young players development and he is unlikely to demand consideration by a Championship side, but is still regarded by his club, then a Cat 1 Academy should be able to offer a superior physical, technical, tactical and psychological experience than say a League Two club or Vanarama National League on matchday.
As an aside, I too doubt they are hoping to move him on, but clubs regularly offer their young players contracts even when they don't expect them to make the grade at their club, but might at another level and command a fee, if any potential fee out strips the value of the contract in the grand scale of things its an easy decision, the big clubs do it all the time and use the loan system to sell their wares.
AZ Gull
@SeagullsAcademy @seagullsacademy.bsky.social
[TWEET]896677402386071553[/TWEET]
Yes, but isn't that in reality just one step up from a simulator. You can train people to do a lot of things on a simulator, but it's still a jump to the real thing.
As for why we're loaning White to Newport County, well, I for one am quite happy if we're hedging our bets. Surely the immediate aim is to give him experience of proper 'grown up' football? Sink or swim time, son!
HastingsSeagull
Well-known member
That's great news. I reckon he'll become a good Champ defender and raise us a lot of money plus have a good career. You never know he MIGHT even break into a PL team but far too early to predict.
Our CBs always seem to be the cream of the youth set up and reckon will continue for another 3-5 years until the effects start to kick in.
Best of luck to him and hope he can keep developing and getting MOTM type accolades as that's all he can do right now and will lead to him climbing the pyramid.
Our CBs always seem to be the cream of the youth set up and reckon will continue for another 3-5 years until the effects start to kick in.
Best of luck to him and hope he can keep developing and getting MOTM type accolades as that's all he can do right now and will lead to him climbing the pyramid.
That is the same old line trotted out for generations within the game too but I am challenging the logic of why then spunk £millions of pounds to set up and finance a modern day Academy if ultimately you think the best thing for a 19/20 year old player is take him out of a first class training environment and into a third class environment.
There is of course a tipping point where Academy's just cannot replicate some levels experience, we hear of Chelsea, Man Utd etc. loaning out players to Championship or their sister European clubs that is totally different to loaning out White or JMD to Worthing, Dagenham and Redbridge or Newport County.
My point really is that irrespective of the level of club a young player might be loaned to, posters on here immediately come out with the usual lines of 'make a man of him', 'experience real football' and 'toughen him up' when all loans are not the same and take a little closer examination to assess whether it is a loan that the club hope might offer him a positive experience to add to his BHA career or a loan that is to squirt them out to a club to just allow him to find playing time where he might not even demand a starting position with our U23's and an imminent release at the end of his contract.
We have in recent seasons loaned young develoment professionals out to Worthing, Bognor, Maidstone, Dagenham, Newport, Lincoln, East Grinstead, Chelmsford and Whitehawk etc.
Each loan doesnt represent the same objective, each loan is different and are done for different reasons.
AZ Gull
@SeagullsAcademy @seagullsacademy.bsky.social
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AZ Gull
@SeagullsAcademy @seagullsacademy.bsky.social
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AZ Gull
@SeagullsAcademy @seagullsacademy.bsky.social
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mickybha
Well-known member
- Jan 2, 2010
- 518
AZ Gull
@SeagullsAcademy @seagullsacademy.bsky.social
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Postman Pat
Well-known member
Ⓩ-Ⓐ-Ⓜ-Ⓞ-Ⓡ-Ⓐ
Hove / Παρος
Never seen hime play but obviously has something about him. Will be interesting to see how he gets on in pre-season next year.
Nixonator
Well-known member
Seen him play a few times, very composed.