BBC news about the gay chants.

[Leighgull]

My two-penny'worth.
1) Congratulations to the B&HA SC and the Gay Football Supporters Network for putting the work in compiling the reports. Long overdue and it's really moved the issue up the agenda, bravo.
2) The central issue for me in this entire debate (surprisingly not discussed enough in this thread, and sadly completely dodged by those opposing what the SC is doing) is why no gay professional footballer feels able to come out in this country and, alongside that, why there are so few out gay voices on football supporters forums like this one and those of other clubs - the obvious answer to me, is that there remains a very strong climate of discrimination even in these so-called enlightened times, and while the chanting identified by the SC might not be responsible for creating that (obviously it's a wider problem throughout society), it certainly reinforces it - and that's wrong and something must be done about it.
3) Is the example of how football has fought racism a realistic parallel? Yes - the parallel is strong with homophobia as both are anti-discrimination/civil rights issues.
4) But isn't it the same as anti-welsh, anti-scottish, anti-northern, anti-west country etc etc chants? Not at all - there is no widespread virulent discrimination in this country against people being from Wales or from Yorkshire or from Devon, etc etc so the comparison doesn't work - it's facile.
5) But doesn't it sterilise traditional football culture. No, modern all-seater stadia and high prices do that, not stopping racist and homophobic chanting. The proof is going to somewhere like the Millentor at St Pauli, where you'll see a far more vibrant terrace-based, singing-based atmosphere than you'll ever see at the Amex with its traditional gobby homophobic set of away fans - but these St Pauli fans have also led anti-racist/anti-homophobia campaigning.
6) How do you practically draw the line between milder comments ("holding hands") and more aggressive chanting ("queers" "aids" etc). I don't think you can, it's all got to go, just like all chanting references to a player's colour had to go in the past. Did we lose much by getting rid of mild racially-charged banter? No. My football experience won't be scarred by not hearing the holding hands chant again, will yours?
7) Think of the children! I have a lot of sympathy with those who don't want their kids to listen to homophobic chanting, my kids aged 6 and 10 have season tickets after all. But that's not my primary worry, I think parents can explain to kids right and wrong. I don't think we see kids being put off going to the Amex by homophobic chanting, judging by the large numbers that do go. But can we say the same about Brighton's large gay community? I think the chanting reinforces a hostile and unwelcoming atmosphere for gay fans attending the Amex, as racist chanting did for black fans at grounds up and down the country in the past, and that's the main reason why something must be done about it.
8) What about our gay chants that try to answer the homophobic gay chanting? Does it really have to be stated that chants aimed at belittling or confusing the homophobes are not themselves homophobic, as some seem to rather oddly believe on this thread? It's the intent behind the language that's crucial, not the language itself. I've chanted the "too ugly to be gay" many times, as I'm sure many have on here in an attempt to do SOMETHING. For me, as long as the authorities take so little action on this issue, it's perfectly legitimate for our fans to take direct action themselves and attempt to satirise and belittle the haters. In the circumstances when the authorities really start cracking down on homophobia in stadiums, then will our riposte chants confuse the issue and act as a defence cover for the haters? That's quite possible, but this then becomes an issue of tactical judgment at a certain time rather than of principle - it might be more sensible to put them on backburner in those circumstances if anti-homophobic laws start being properly enforced. But the authorities are NOT showing that willingness at the moment, so for me it remains open season on the homophobes and perfectly legitimate to fight fire with fire. And I'm pretty enough to be gay, which is an added bonus.

That's not two pennorth that's about £4.50.

A lot of words to say " it's not big or clever but we will keep shouting " too ugly" as long as they keep chanting " does your boyfriend".

This is a total non issue and part of me wishes that those with overly developed sensitivities would just go and support something sterile and corporate like Basketball. The Yiddo thing at spurs had been going on for longer than our gay issue and it hasn't been stopped by countless bleeding hearts.

Get over yourselves.

 

[Commander]

And this is why you have been so missed on this board. Superb and 100% true. There is not a single word I disagree with.

How about the last bit?

 

[m20gull]

That's not two pennorth that's about £4.50.

A lot of words to say " it's not big or clever but we will keep shouting " too ugly" as long as they keep chanting " does your boyfriend".

This is a total non issue and part of me wishes that those with overly developed sensitivities would just go and support something sterile and corporate like Basketball. The Yiddo thing at spurs had been going on for longer than our gay issue and it hasn't been stopped by countless bleeding hearts.

Get over yourselves.

It's not a"non-issue". The chanting in the stadium is just a herd manifestation of the same attitude that the chanters show elsewhere. When in a mob they feel enabled to vent their homophobia. Smaller groups then feel justified in using more direct abuse. Worst for me this season was not a song, but comments between a group of dads with one teenage son present on the train from London. It needs to be made clear that it is not acceptable and clubs and the league are paying lip service to it that they would not get away with for racism. I'm not bothered about "does your boyfriend know you're here?"; I'm bothered about the attitude it represents.

 

[Leighgull]

It's not a"non-issue". The chanting in the stadium is just a herd manifestation of the same attitude that the chanters show elsewhere. When in a mob they feel enabled to vent their homophobia. Smaller groups then feel justified in using more direct abuse. Worst for me this season was not a song, but comments between a group of dads with one teenage son present on the train from London. It needs to be made clear that it is not acceptable and clubs and the league are paying lip service to it that they would not get away with for racism. I'm not bothered about "does your boyfriend know you're here?"; I'm bothered about the attitude it represents.

I have seen some harsh and untrue things aid by one grup of fans to another, I've seen individuals physically assault each other over club differences...there again, I've been homophobically abused simply because I am FROMBrighton and not to do with football at all. People think its perfectly acceptable to come out with a "backs to the wall boys" comment whenever Brighton is mentioned. It's just a fact of life. Get over it.

Even my other halfs mum, who is a typical Essex girl, commented the other day. "Ooh, I saw on the news today that Brighton get lots of homophobia and you're all really upset by it, have you ever been called a queer then because of football" she had never even thought about it as an issue...until now. In fact since the BBC and Liz Costa got involved I estimate the piss taking here in Essex has gone up by 100%. I need to prepare a report and DEMAND that all these nasty Essex folk cease being homophobic towards me.

Christ almighty, what a bunch of wet blankets we are.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I have seen some harsh and untrue things aid by one grup of fans to another, I've seen individuals physically assault each other over club differences...there again, I've been homophobically abused simply because I am FROMBrighton and not to do with football at all. People think its perfectly acceptable to come out with a "backs to the wall boys" comment whenever Brighton is mentioned. It's just a fact of life. Get over it.

Even my other halfs mum, who is a typical Essex girl, commented the other day. "Ooh, I saw on the news today that Brighton get lots of homophobia and you're all really upset by it, have you ever been called a queer then because of football" she had never even thought about it as an issue...until now. In fact since the BBC and Liz Costa got involved I estimate the piss taking here in Essex has gone up by 100%. I need to prepare a report and DEMAND that all these nasty Essex folk cease being homophobic towards me.

Christ almighty, what a bunch of wet blankets we are.

I agree. The issue of gayness at Brighton is not just associated with the club. It has a lot to do with characters like Simon Fanshawe,Jo Goode and other members of the gay friendly media constantly racking on about the gay scene and the pink pound blah blah in Brighton.

This and the fact it has a large pride festival and highly visible gay "areas". Shall we make all those nasty Homosexuals go away so that our delicate flower football fans don't have to hear naughty songs about bums?

 

[KZNSeagull]

Even my other halfs mum, who is a typical Essex girl, commented the other day. "Ooh, I saw on the news today that Brighton get lots of homophobia and you're all really upset by it, have you ever been called a queer then because of football" she had never even thought about it as an issue...until now.

My Mother in law also commented on it after seeing it on the news. She had not known anything about it or that her daughter had a flat within the main gay community in Brighton for several years!
She did say that something should be done about it though.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

My Mother in law also commented on it after seeing it on the news. She had not known anything about it or that her daughter had a flat within the main gay community in Brighton for several years!
She did say that something should be done about it though.

It was her assertion that we are ALL upset by it.

Couldn't give a toss.

 

[Triggaaar]

My two-penny'worth.
1) Congratulations to the B&HA SC and the Gay Football Supporters Network for putting the work in compiling the reports. Long overdue and it's really moved the issue up the agenda, bravo.
2) The central issue for me in this entire debate (surprisingly not discussed enough in this thread, and sadly completely dodged by those opposing what the SC is doing) is why no gay professional footballer feels able to come out in this country and, alongside that, why there are so few out gay voices on football supporters forums like this one and those of other clubs - the obvious answer to me, is that there remains a very strong climate of discrimination even in these so-called enlightened times, and while the chanting identified by the SC might not be responsible for creating that (obviously it's a wider problem throughout society), it certainly reinforces it - and that's wrong and something must be done about it.
3) Is the example of how football has fought racism a realistic parallel? Yes - the parallel is strong with homophobia as both are anti-discrimination/civil rights issues.
4) But isn't it the same as anti-welsh, anti-scottish, anti-northern, anti-west country etc etc chants? Not at all - there is no widespread virulent discrimination in this country against people being from Wales or from Yorkshire or from Devon, etc etc so the comparison doesn't work - it's facile.
5) But doesn't it sterilise traditional football culture. No, modern all-seater stadia and high prices do that, not stopping racist and homophobic chanting. The proof is going to somewhere like the Millentor at St Pauli, where you'll see a far more vibrant terrace-based, singing-based atmosphere than you'll ever see at the Amex with its traditional gobby homophobic set of away fans - but these St Pauli fans have also led anti-racist/anti-homophobia campaigning.
6) How do you practically draw the line between milder comments ("holding hands") and more aggressive chanting ("queers" "aids" etc). I don't think you can, it's all got to go, just like all chanting references to a player's colour had to go in the past. Did we lose much by getting rid of mild racially-charged banter? No. My football experience won't be scarred by not hearing the holding hands chant again, will yours?
7) Think of the children! I have a lot of sympathy with those who don't want their kids to listen to homophobic chanting, my kids aged 6 and 10 have season tickets after all. But that's not my primary worry, I think parents can explain to kids right and wrong. I don't think we see kids being put off going to the Amex by homophobic chanting, judging by the large numbers that do go. But can we say the same about Brighton's large gay community? I think the chanting reinforces a hostile and unwelcoming atmosphere for gay fans attending the Amex, as racist chanting did for black fans at grounds up and down the country in the past, and that's the main reason why something must be done about it.
8) What about our gay chants that try to answer the homophobic gay chanting? Does it really have to be stated that chants aimed at belittling or confusing the homophobes are not themselves homophobic, as some seem to rather oddly believe on this thread? It's the intent behind the language that's crucial, not the language itself. I've chanted the "too ugly to be gay" many times, as I'm sure many have on here in an attempt to do SOMETHING. For me, as long as the authorities take so little action on this issue, it's perfectly legitimate for our fans to take direct action themselves and attempt to satirise and belittle the haters. In the circumstances when the authorities really start cracking down on homophobia in stadiums, then will our riposte chants confuse the issue and act as a defence cover for the haters? That's quite possible, but this then becomes an issue of tactical judgment at a certain time rather than of principle - it might be more sensible to put them on backburner in those circumstances if anti-homophobic laws start being properly enforced. But the authorities are NOT showing that willingness at the moment, so for me it remains open season on the homophobes and perfectly legitimate to fight fire with fire. And I'm pretty enough to be gay, which is an added bonus.

Indeed.

 

[KZNSeagull]

It was her assertion that we are ALL upset by it.

Couldn't give a toss.

Well yes, because that is the impression the news story gave her. I did point out that the vast majority could not give a stuff about it.

 

[topbanana36]

Having read Northstandchat since its inception it is quite clear that some of our fans should be watching a more gentile sport like bowls cause some of our Fans are such sensitive petals. And yes I am a parent before anyone starts. It's football for goodness sake where I would for go escapism where I could do things and says things that I would not otherwise do, offended for having a chant directed towards me get real.

 

[jackanada]

On that homophobia in football programme (the one where we had it confirmed that John Fashanu is a google and discovered that he has a hot daughter) Matt Lucas opined that "we can see you holding hands" was funny and he would probably join in with it. Being a gooner counts against him, but can we please take his word (and my straw poll of gay friends gave 100% agreement on his view) that this at least is acceptable.
Interestingly also found complete acceptance of "does your boyfriend know you're here" and slightly more grudging acceptance of "you're just a town full of gays" (response: well we're a city with a lot of gays so can't argue too much)

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Having read Northstandchat since its inception it is quite clear that some of our fans should be watching a more gentile sport like bowls cause some of our Fans are such sensitive petals. And yes I am a parent before anyone starts. It's football for goodness sake where I would for go escapism where I could do things and says things that I would not otherwise do, offended for having a chant directed towards me get real.

So going to a public event and acting like an immature **** is what football's for?

Interesting take on it I guess.

It is 2013 isn't it?

 

[topbanana36]

So going to a public event and acting like an immature **** is what football's for?

Interesting take on it I guess.

It is 2013 isn't it?[/QUOTE] So that means because it's 2013 we get all cry baby like when we get a few chants directed at us. Gosh we have become a bunch of big girls blouses or am I not allowed to say that cause it may offend someone.

 

[pork pie]

So going to a public event and acting like an immature **** is what football's for?

Interesting take on it I guess.

It is 2013 isn't it?[/QUOTE] So that means because it's 2013 we get all cry baby like when we get called a few chants directed at us. Gosh we have become a bunch of big girls blouses or am I not allowed to say that cause it may offend someone.

You cannot say much about anything these days!

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

So that means because it's 2013 we get all cry baby like when we get a few chants directed at us. Gosh we have become a bunch of big girls blouses or am I not allowed to say that cause it may offend someone.

Actually I'm talking about the dead shits who make such chants in the first place.

I've been to massive sporting events all over the world. Witnessed some amazing crowds along the way.

Then you have these football crowds with groups of 30+ year old men acting like utter immature morons.

It's cringe worthy and an embarrassment to any club whose fans think it's great fun. People like that need to grow the **** up.

 

[pork pie]

Actually I'm talking about the dead shits who make such chants in the first place.

I've been to massive sporting events all over the world. Witnessed some amazing crowds along the way.

Then you have these football crowds with groups of 30+ year old men acting like utter immature morons.

It's cringe worthy and an embarrassment to any club whose fans think it's great fun. People like that need to grow the **** up.

Maybe you should stick to other sports? How about cricket? Plenty of other poofs there?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You cannot say much about anything these days!

I fail to see why there's a need to do/say such things in public or think it'seven remotely funny is pretty much my position.

Are we dealing with people with super low IQs here?

Maybe that's the issue at hand.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Maybe you should stick to other sports? How about cricket? Plenty of other poofs there?

No chance of you growing up and contributing to society in a meaningful way then?

Big ask I know.

 

[pork pie]

I fail to see why there's a need to do/say such things in public or think it'seven remotely funny is pretty much my position.

Are we dealing with people with super low IQs here?

Maybe that's the issue at hand.

Nope, I think we are dealing with some prig who thinks he should tell everyone else how to enjoy themselves at football. Go to watch cricket instead.

 

[pork pie]

No chance of you growing up and contributing to society in a meaningful way then?

Big ask I know.

Put it this way. I go to football to let my hair down and enjoy myself. If you don't like that. Well, ****ing tough!