Bankers "need to join real world" minister says

[Tooting Gull]

Hmm...."not viable in the long term". Karl Marx was predicting that 150 odd years ago. He was wrong then and it's still wrong now. Capitalism works. It may not be pretty, it may have winners and losers but it certainly works.

And it's infinitely better than the socialist alternative.

You've answered a point I didn't make, which is easy enough to do. I haven't called for the abolition of capitalism. I've responded to Lokki's fair point about Northern Rock, and presumably though Bushy has just spontaneously combusted that's what he thinks would have happened to RBS. But even if you accept these organisations have a role to play, they must be regulated in such a way that this insanity cannot continue. Even if that costs a bit.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Hmm...."not viable in the long term". Karl Marx was predicting that 150 odd years ago. He was wrong then and it's still wrong now. Capitalism works. It may not be pretty, it may have winners and losers but it certainly works.

And it's infinitely better than the socialist alternative.

Both systems have their plus points and negative points, I would prefer to have a system where both ideologies balanced each other out.

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

Hmm...."not viable in the long term". Karl Marx was predicting that 150 odd years ago. He was wrong then and it's still wrong now. Capitalism works. It may not be pretty, it may have winners and losers but it certainly works.
And it's infinitely better than the socialist alternative.

not if you are one of the many losers

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

Yeah you're right. Health care, free education, decent public transport, social services, democracy, freedom of choice, water on tap, food in the shops. All bollocks innit.

how is education free ?

 

[Lokki 7]

It is clear that the system at the moment is not reliable,

What system is perfect though? The tube workers going on strike doesn't mean we should scrap the underground network and build a skyrail does it?

Any system that has the potential for that outcome needs major surgery.

Possibly. But the politicians, and indeed voters are not the best placed people to decide what that should be.

Apart from anything else, that money could be spent much better elsewhere.

Lent more than spent, but what could be better than preventing our society from collapsing? I understand your anger, but you cannot view this complex issue in such simplistic and idealistic terms. If you were to get your way I promise you we would all be a lot worse off than we are now.

 

[Gwylan]

Hmm...."not viable in the long term". Karl Marx was predicting that 150 odd years ago. He was wrong then and it's still wrong now.

That's not quite true. Marx said that capitalism was inherently unstable and would collapse in the long term but you can't say that he was wrong because the long term hasn't been reached yet.

That's the problem with Marxist theory - it's ultimately meaningless. As Popper demonstrated, because Marx's tenets are unfalsifiable, the theory just can't hold water.

I'm no Marxist, partly because of this lack of intellectual rigour, but can you say that he was proved wrong. Marxists will - and do -say that the current crisis is an example of how right he was.

 

[Lokki 7]

Decent public transport? Where do you live? France or Germany?

Ever been to Somalia?

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

It is clear that the system at the moment is not reliable, or probably viable, in the long term. Any system that has the potential for that outcome needs major surgery. You can't just be hoping it won't happen. Apart from anything else, that money could be spent much better elsewhere.

How about going back to actually making things? Real things, and make money by selling them. I think it is called manufacturing.
I know this country still has a manufacturing industry, but I think it needs to get bigger than it currently is. France and Germany have come out of the recession already and the reason I can see for this is that they have bigger manufacturing industries and rely less on banking. Being an amateur when it comes to economics I could be wrong in this assumption.

 

[BigGully]

Hmm...."not viable in the long term". Karl Marx was predicting that 150 odd years ago. He was wrong then and it's still wrong now. Capitalism works. It may not be pretty, it may have winners and losers but it certainly works.

And it's infinitely better than the socialist alternative.

Capitalism works much of the time, but on this one, it failed miserably, no doubt.

It has been bailed out and propped up by a socialist method.

With the banks close to collapse, which, we are told would have devastating effects on the global economy, maybe Karl Marx had a point !!!

 

[Lokki 7]

I'm not saying that the banks shouldn't have been bailed out but the scenario you're describing is pretty much what happened in Iceland - all the major banks there failed and the economy nosedived.

But,as far as I can see, while there's been a lot of financial pain, Iceland has come through unscathed.

The collapse of the Icelandic banks could never bring down the global financial system, that is the difference. I am talking about all banks going down, which could well have happened without any govt intervention. A totally different scenario.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Ever been to Somalia?

No, have you?

I just think that calling public transport in this country "decent" is wrong. We have public transport but it is expensive and unreliable, and from where I stand that is not decent.

 

[Buzzer]

how is education free ?

or, indeed, effective?

*cough*

... or highly sort after....

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

or, indeed, effective?

*cough*

well done, sorry, was trying to do my highly SOUGHT after job whilst typing away on NSC - You ?

 

[Perry Milkins]

I take great exception to the inference that cocaine has had any bearing on my career path.

well it may have led many up the garden path.

 

[Dave the OAP]

How about going back to actually making things? Real things, and make money by selling them. I think it is called manufacturing.
I know this country still has a manufacturing industry, but I think it needs to get bigger than it currently is. France and Germany have come out of the recession already and reason I can see for this is that they have bigger manufacturing industries and rely less on banking. Being an amateur when it comes to economics I could be wrong in this assumption.

That is all very well, however that relies on two things, a) we have the capacity to manufacture goods and b) we have the products that people want to buy at the right price.

the problem with a world market whereby you have different societies with different standards of living, there will always be countries who are able to to produce products that are cheaper ( due to wages etc) and of a similar standard - and even if its a lower standard, for example the Japanese flooding the European markets with cars in the 70's, people are prepared to buy them.

For all the vitreol against the French, the French support their car industries etc buy actually buying the products as they see it as patriotic to do so, this really is not the case in the uk as we saw with teh BMC/British Leyland, Vauxhall etc ( although of course Vauxhall is GM ie US company)

 

[adrian29uk]

How about going back to actually making things? Real things, and make money by selling them. I think it is called manufacturing.
I know this country still has a manufacturing industry, but I think it needs to get bigger than it currently is. France and Germany have come out of the recession already and reason I can see for this is that they have bigger manufacturing industries and rely less on banking. Being an amateur when it comes to economics I could be wrong in this assumption.

Spot on. I was a trainee toolmaker. Unfortunately I was made redundant twice. I am now in IT, but I 100% agree with you,we need more industry, and we need to move away from service industries.

The keyboard you are typing on, the mouse you are clicking, the pc you are using somone has to manufacturer these.

French, Germans, Italians they all make their own product to be proud off. What do we make?

Unfortunately we now live in a society where Engineering or Manufacturing is looked down upon.

 

[beorhthelm]

But even if you accept these organisations have a role to play, they must be regulated in such a way that this insanity cannot continue. Even if that costs a bit.

regulation is not a bad thing if done properly. however, now is not the time to have knee jerk reactions to play to the crowd, it needs to be thought out and considered. do remember that the current regulatory system was put in place by the this governement, they are as much to blame as the "greedy fat cat bankers". they could have done something 3, 5, 10 years ago but chose not to.

 

[Lokki 7]

No, have you?

I just think that calling public transport in this country "decent" is wrong. We have public transport but it is expensive and unreliable, and from where I stand that is not decent.

I travel all over the country, often to watch the Albion. I moan, but I always arrive safely and often in time and in comfort. I think we take all of this for granted and forget where it has come from. I use Somalia as the complete opposite but you could also use Cuba, Peru, Albania or just about any developing nation. We are bloody well off in this country and it didn't happen by chance, it is underpinned by a way of life that has delivered these things. We should stop and think about it sometimes.

 

[Gwylan]

The collapse of the Icelandic banks could never bring down the global financial system, that is the difference. I am talking about all banks going down, which could well have happened without any govt intervention. A totally different scenario.

And if all the banks, globally, collapsed what would have been the situation then? Would we have been worse off? I'd like the opiniion of someone in the industry.

And you didn't answer my second point - what would happen if the Dubai situation brought another credit crisis and more collapsing banks, could the UK government afford to bail out any more banks?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Health care, free education, decent public transport, social services, democracy, freedom of choice, water on tap, food in the shops.

And all of those are down to Investment Banking bonus schemes ? (Although I do think that making profits in a growing market is a vastly underated skill)