Baldock and Stephens - Argus stats.

[brightn'ove]

As I say, I agree with you. But those who don't agree with us shouldn't be written off as "not understanding the game" for that opinion alone. That is pompous drivel.

My comment was more geared towards people that slate Sam as being 'useless' (it was actually aimed towards one poster in particular). Being concerned about his goal scoring rate is fair enough, but you can be concerned about that whilst still appreciating just how much he brings to the team.

 

[Billy the Fish]

It's snobby and it's completely untrue. [MENTION=3566]hans kraay fan club[/MENTION] on here didn't have much time for Baldock until the end of last season, and as far as I'm concerned he knows his onions. Certainly more than most, including dicks who hold this view that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't understand the game.

It's perfectly reasonable to hold a negative view of a forward who managed about six league goals in 2 seasons for us. Plenty of people consider a non-scoring forward as a luxury we couldn't afford, especially as last season we missed out on goal difference, and struggling (relatively) to score goals in the first half of the season was one of the things that cost us a Premier league place.

The irony is that I agree with you that SB has always been worth his place. Personally I have stated many times on here over the past that he is probably the best forward in the division off the ball, and he creates far more space for other players to run into than anybody else. Great football brain.

But it must be said that until this season he hasn't looked like scoring enough goals and for that reason I'm not going to accuse people who disagree with me of not understanding the game. That would be snobby and frankly, incorrect.

The goals tally is an interesting argument. Many of us spent the whole of last season sticking up for Baldock because we believe the work he does for the team is more important than the number of goals attributed to him personally. Other players score more goals because of how Baldock affects the game, other players score more goals and win more games when he's on the pitch, it's as simple as that.

I think the frustration is when people refuse point blank to acknowledge how Baldock affects the whole shape of the game and just point to the number of goals he scores to shut down the debate about what else he does, it's a very typical view of a ball watching supporter who's never played at any level.

There used to be a similar debate about Theo Walcott for Arsenal. Their win ratio when he played was much higher and eventually the pundits pointed out that his pace forced the opposition defence to play 10 yards deeper, which in turn opened the game up for the midfield, but still people questioned his place in the side because he didn't score enough goals.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Glenn Murray
Mins 2170, Goals 15, MPG: 145

Tomer Hemed
Mins 1089, Goals 7, MPG: 155

Sam Baldock
Mins 1353, Goals 6, MPG: 225

Anthony Knockaert
Mins 2350, Goals 10, MPG: 235

(Championship matches only, and calculated roughly - based on 45 mins per half)

On course for four players to be into double figures. A long time since we've seen that, at this level.

 

[Seasidesage]

Glenn Murray
Mins 2170, Goals 15, MPG: 145

Tomer Hemed
Mins 1089, Goals 7, MPG: 155

Sam Baldock
Mins 1353, Goals 6, MPG: 225

Anthony Knockaert
Mins 2350, Goals 10, MPG: 235

(Championship matches only, and calculated roughly - based on 45 mins per half)

On course for four players to be into double figures. A long time since we've seen that, at this level.

Hemed's are really quite impressive when you consider how many of those minutes have come off the bench...

 

[Machiavelli]

The goals tally is an interesting argument. Many of us spent the whole of last season sticking up for Baldock because we believe the work he does for the team is more important than the number of goals attributed to him personally. Other players score more goals because of how Baldock affects the game, other players score more goals and win more games when he's on the pitch, it's as simple as that.

I think the frustration is when people refuse point blank to acknowledge how Baldock affects the whole shape of the game and just point to the number of goals he scores to shut down the debate about what else he does, it's a very typical view of a ball watching supporter who's never played at any level.

There used to be a similar debate about Theo Walcott for Arsenal. Their win ratio when he played was much higher and eventually the pundits pointed out that his pace forced the opposition defence to play 10 yards deeper, which in turn opened the game up for the midfield, but still people questioned his place in the side because he didn't score enough goals.

Top post fella

 

[Mellotron]

The goals tally is an interesting argument. Many of us spent the whole of last season sticking up for Baldock because we believe the work he does for the team is more important than the number of goals attributed to him personally. Other players score more goals because of how Baldock affects the game, other players score more goals and win more games when he's on the pitch, it's as simple as that.

I think the frustration is when people refuse point blank to acknowledge how Baldock affects the whole shape of the game and just point to the number of goals he scores to shut down the debate about what else he does, it's a very typical view of a ball watching supporter who's never played at any level.

There used to be a similar debate about Theo Walcott for Arsenal. Their win ratio when he played was much higher and eventually the pundits pointed out that his pace forced the opposition defence to play 10 yards deeper, which in turn opened the game up for the midfield, but still people questioned his place in the side because he didn't score enough goals.

This is perfect, and sums up my thoughts far better than I could.

 

[SBarlow]

Glenn Murray
Mins 2170, Goals 15, MPG: 145

Tomer Hemed
Mins 1089, Goals 7, MPG: 155

Sam Baldock
Mins 1353, Goals 6, MPG: 225

Anthony Knockaert
Mins 2350, Goals 10, MPG: 235

(Championship matches only, and calculated roughly - based on 45 mins per half)

On course for four players to be into double figures. A long time since we've seen that, at this level.

Could you add in number of shots taken? And thus a goals per shots ratio?

I would expect to see there is very little difference in the shots to goal ratio of Hemed, Murray and Baldock.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Could you add in number of shots taken? And thus a goals per shots ratio?

I would expect to see there is very little difference in the shots to goal ratio of Hemed, Murray and Baldock.

No, I couldn't. That was cobbled together entirely manually via soccerbase - adding up the minutes played. Don't have any other stats.

 

[chaileyjem]

Both are available for Saturday says CH
http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/alb...ry_boost_for_Albion_as_key_duo_set_to_return/

"Both are in contention. They have trained and they are fine."

 

[Wardy's twin]

Thanks Simster nicely stated just because I am not SB's biggest fan does not mean I don't understand football i just have a different view of how I would like to see a forward play. I get frustrated by some of the things he does not do in same way I got frustrated that Stockdale did not come for crosses/command his area (he has improved). In the latter's case as stated elsewhere in this thread his shot stopping is excellent. With Baldock I think the issue is confidence and time on the ball, when he thinks about it he is less effective with the outcome.

The bottom line though is Ch thinks Sam fits the current style better and that is good enough for me.

 

[Scunner]

This is perfect, and sums up my thoughts far better than I could.

Yes and a good summation of my thoughts. This was perfectly illustrated by the tactical nightmare of the Huddersfield away game. Everyone knows, or I hope that they do after the disasters in September, that Hemed and Murray just does not work. They are too slow, static and play too square of each other and it unbalances the team. This causes three equally bad things to happen in a midfield set up as a 442: it splits into a diamond inadvertently, it drops too deep leaving a huge gap between midfield and the front two, or it gets caught forward and outnumbered. The last event is what happened that night, frequently. A diamond is great if you set up for it, but you don't play two out and out wingers like Murphy and AK.

I have always said to Scunner Jr that the goalkeeper is the most important position in the team. A successful team never had a bad one, and a good one makes an average team better. The reason is trust, the centre-halves don't drop deep, can play square and will split when they can to accelerate play when in possession.

Similarly, SB gives our midfield the ability to compete when outnumbered as it frequently is. Leicester had Kante last year in a 442 and this system needs a workhorse like that to have any chance with the typically packed midfields of the modern game.

I don't understand why his goal ratio is important when his contribution is so obviously beneficial.

 

[chucky1973]

I don't think either will start on Saturday contrary to what we are reading in the Argus.

 

[Kneon Light]

I don't think either will start on Saturday contrary to what we are reading in the Argus.

I suspect both will be on the bench - just a guess though!

 

[spence]

No chance Stephens will be on the bench if fit

 

[chaileyjem]

I don't think either will start on Saturday contrary to what we are reading in the Argus.

Where in the Argus can you read that ? It quotes Hughton who doesn't say that either.

"Albion could have Dale Stephens and Sam Baldock back for Burton's visit on Saturday."
"are on course to return from calf injuries against Nigel Clough's strugglers."
Boss Chris Hughton said this morning: "Both are in contention. They have trained and they are fine."
http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/alb...ry_boost_for_Albion_as_key_duo_set_to_return/

 

[spence]

Where in the Argus can you read that ? It quotes Hughton who doesn't say that either.

"Albion could have Dale Stephens and Sam Baldock back for Burton's visit on Saturday."
"are on course to return from calf injuries against Nigel Clough's strugglers."
Boss Chris Hughton said this morning: "Both are in contention. They have trained and they are fine."
http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/alb...ry_boost_for_Albion_as_key_duo_set_to_return/

He has logged off : -)

 

[Stat Brother]

I have no idea why posters seem to think CH won't play his strongest available team.

Have they not been paying attention, all season.

 

[chucky1973]

Where in the Argus can you read that ? It quotes Hughton who doesn't say that either.

"Albion could have Dale Stephens and Sam Baldock back for Burton's visit on Saturday."
"are on course to return from calf injuries against Nigel Clough's strugglers."
Boss Chris Hughton said this morning: "Both are in contention. They have trained and they are fine."
http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/alb...ry_boost_for_Albion_as_key_duo_set_to_return/

I didn't imply that the Argus has stated they will start, more that they are suggesting they are fit and having trained will be available for Saturday. I was saying that even reading that, they wont be playing Saturday.

 

[samtheseagull]

Do love all the different opinions on Baldock. I do however struggle to see how anyone can still bring up the "doesn't score enough goals" comment. In an ideal world yes it would be lovely if he was banging in 20 a season but lets be honest if he was he would not even be at the Albion. Baldock makes the space for others and is an very intelligent footballer, stats don't lie.We are better with him in the team. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of football can see this cant they? Think its about time the haters just fully admit they were wrong. Same as the Barnes haters ect ect.

Also don't think people realise how important and good Stephens is. Our best CM in my opinion, as was last season.

 

[chaileyjem]

I didn't imply that the Argus has stated they will start, more that they are suggesting they are fit and having trained will be available for Saturday. I was saying that even reading that, they wont be playing Saturday.

Sure.But its Hughton you're choosing not to believe , not the Argus.