Klaas
I've changed this
- Nov 1, 2017
- 2,666
Are you seriously suggesting 'they' have been 'mocking' our high cases?
Who is they? Austrian people? Austrian government?
And what do you mean by mocking? Laughing? Taking the piss? How and where?
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Austria To Make Covid Jabs Mandatory In European First
- Thread starter Tom Hark Preston Park
- Start date
Are you seriously suggesting 'they' have been 'mocking' our high cases?
Who is they? Austrian people? Austrian government?
And what do you mean by mocking? Laughing? Taking the piss? How and where?
Wardy's twin
Well-known member
- Oct 21, 2014
- 8,874
Sorry about that. I'm a stats geek, I can't see a wrong statistic without getting the irresistible urge to correct it. More then happy to be corrected on this as I want the debate to be based on accurate info
I understand the point, without necessarily agreeing with it. Compulsory vaccination has happened before in this country (smallpox in the 1850's, I believe) but I don't think this disease is serious enough to warrant that at present. At the current rate that's 50k deaths in the next calendar year so what number would warrant compulsory vaccination All government compulsion to do anything should be taken only after deep consideration. Government make decisions about our lives everyday we have little or no influence on those decisions e.g. how much money is spent on health I am currently, but not irrevocably, on the side of no compulsory vaccination for covid.
I do agree that those who don't get vaccinated are fools. But fools have rights too! A 'fool' drove at 100mph and killed a young girl what rights (other than a fair trial) should they have , do they keep their licence and get back in a car? If it was just the lives of fools then that might be a valid point but they will spread COVID and more to the point they will catch it and will take up resources that could be deployed on treating others
I don't know if vaccination is going to stop COVID but every indication is that is has reduced the mortality rate but that is still too high and yet a significant proportion of people remain unvaccinated.
Not sure how old you are but I am off a generation when BCG had a very high up take because people had a sense of social responsibility AND were sh*t scared of TB as it was a killer and my parents would certainly have seen fmily members die because of it . We have been moving further and further away from our social responsibility as individual's rights is the new buzz phrase yet those rights are there because we have a society that worked together.
P.S> Cornet looks some player ... are you still living around Burnley or down here?
dsr-burnley
Well-known member
- Aug 15, 2014
- 2,634
I don't think we disagree in principle - we agree that there comes a point when vaccination should be made compulsory. We just draw the line in a different place.
The 50k deaths per year need more analysis. The ones who have chosen not to be vaccinated, that's their choice. They have an easy way to save their lives, they chose not to do it, I am willing to show sympathy but that's all. No further action needed. What we don't know is how many of the balance of those 50k are on death's pathway anyway, and how many had many years of healthy life ahead of them.
This is where the official stats according to death certificates, go a bit funny. According to official stats, about 85% of people dying of covid, die with covid as the primary cause of death - implying they had nothing else seriously wrong and they wouldn't have died without covid. Over the last 4 weeks, that's 3,359 total covid deaths of which only 500 had something more seriously wrong with them. And that is surprising, because with other respiratory diseases (flu and pneumonia) it is about 20% with flu/pneumonia as primary cause. And even more surprising, with about 1.8% of the population having tested for covid in the past month, then you would expect about 180 people per week to die with covid purely by the law of averages and with covid having no impact at all. Which suggests that catching covid is actually good for you if you are seriously ill with something else. Seems unlikely. There will be mitigating factors like the relatively high proportion of young people getting the disease, and possibly people who are on death's pathway shielding themselves from it (though that doesn't apply to flu), but even so, it appears from the way they record death certificates that covid is attacking only the healthy, and the sick are not in danger. And I don't see how that can be true.
So how many healthy, vaccinated people are dying? We don't know. They don't tell us. I would like to know, very much.
As for Cornet,. he's a great player. No idea how we came to get him!
Hope he keeps it up! I'm still up north.
Oh, and the fool at 100mph should lose his license for life. Like the man who fires a gun into a crowd, who would never get his gun license back, the fool driver has proved himself unfit to ever handle a motor.
The 50k deaths per year need more analysis. The ones who have chosen not to be vaccinated, that's their choice. They have an easy way to save their lives, they chose not to do it, I am willing to show sympathy but that's all. No further action needed. What we don't know is how many of the balance of those 50k are on death's pathway anyway, and how many had many years of healthy life ahead of them.
This is where the official stats according to death certificates, go a bit funny. According to official stats, about 85% of people dying of covid, die with covid as the primary cause of death - implying they had nothing else seriously wrong and they wouldn't have died without covid. Over the last 4 weeks, that's 3,359 total covid deaths of which only 500 had something more seriously wrong with them. And that is surprising, because with other respiratory diseases (flu and pneumonia) it is about 20% with flu/pneumonia as primary cause. And even more surprising, with about 1.8% of the population having tested for covid in the past month, then you would expect about 180 people per week to die with covid purely by the law of averages and with covid having no impact at all. Which suggests that catching covid is actually good for you if you are seriously ill with something else. Seems unlikely. There will be mitigating factors like the relatively high proportion of young people getting the disease, and possibly people who are on death's pathway shielding themselves from it (though that doesn't apply to flu), but even so, it appears from the way they record death certificates that covid is attacking only the healthy, and the sick are not in danger. And I don't see how that can be true.
So how many healthy, vaccinated people are dying? We don't know. They don't tell us. I would like to know, very much.
As for Cornet,. he's a great player. No idea how we came to get him!
Hope he keeps it up! I'm still up north.Oh, and the fool at 100mph should lose his license for life. Like the man who fires a gun into a crowd, who would never get his gun license back, the fool driver has proved himself unfit to ever handle a motor.
Weststander
Well-known member
A few weeks ago the Guardian wheeled out two of its favourite 
Indepedent Sage propagandists for another instalment of everything in England is terrible, versus a seamless continental pandemic response.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/07/england-vaccine-just-plus-europe-covid
Note the criticism is generally against England, even when things look worse or the same in Wales for example. Anyone would think there’s a drip, drip, drip agenda to influence readers.
A far cry from their raison d’etre”
Independent SAGE is a group of scientists who are working together to provide independent scientific advice to the UK government and public on how to minimise deaths and support Britain’s recovery from the COVID-19 crisis.
We believe openness and transparency leads to better understanding and better decision making. We also believe it the responsibility of scientists and those with specialist knowledge to engage with the public and policy makers, in order to ensure that science benefits all of society.
So, wind on a few short weeks and they’ve disappeared from the Guardian/Independent/LBC/R5. I can’t trace their latest briefing on where we’re failing compared to governments overseas.
Rather than riding a politically motivated rollercoaster, I’m going to stick with those objective people at the real Sage and the JCVI.
Indepedent Sage propagandists for another instalment of everything in England is terrible, versus a seamless continental pandemic response.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/07/england-vaccine-just-plus-europe-covid
Note the criticism is generally against England, even when things look worse or the same in Wales for example. Anyone would think there’s a drip, drip, drip agenda to influence readers.
A far cry from their raison d’etre”
Independent SAGE is a group of scientists who are working together to provide independent scientific advice to the UK government and public on how to minimise deaths and support Britain’s recovery from the COVID-19 crisis.
We believe openness and transparency leads to better understanding and better decision making. We also believe it the responsibility of scientists and those with specialist knowledge to engage with the public and policy makers, in order to ensure that science benefits all of society.
So, wind on a few short weeks and they’ve disappeared from the Guardian/Independent/LBC/R5. I can’t trace their latest briefing on where we’re failing compared to governments overseas.
Rather than riding a politically motivated rollercoaster, I’m going to stick with those objective people at the real Sage and the JCVI.
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Pagel, rather ironically, has now got covid!
Their 3 week lockdown ends today for vaccinated people.
It’s really done the job on reducing infections rates. They’ve gone from 15,800k on the 18th Nov to around 2,600 yesterday.
However, their death rate had got high due to low vaccination rates. Lockdown is essential when death rates increase dramatically, hopefully ours stays as low as South Africa is.
It’s really done the job on reducing infections rates. They’ve gone from 15,800k on the 18th Nov to around 2,600 yesterday.
However, their death rate had got high due to low vaccination rates. Lockdown is essential when death rates increase dramatically, hopefully ours stays as low as South Africa is.
Weststander
Well-known member
The all important ICU metric is still awful, Delta variant patients. The last thing they need is a surge of Omicron patients.
Yoda
English & European
Just for Omicron comparisons, South Africa as a whole only have a total of 405* people in ICU, with Covid as I have seen a report where one hospital has only 8 people ventilated and 2 of them are in for their original trauma reasons, not Covid.
*(Not sure what this equates to per 1,000,000 people).
Source for numbers: https://www.nicd.ac.za/diseases-a-z...ts/daily-hospital-surveillance-datcov-report/
Weststander
Well-known member
That would be relatively great news if translated to Europe.
But subject to the usual provisos:
It takes time for infection to result in severe illness, RSA’s different demographic to Europe’s and the point [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] often makes that Omicron hospitalisations from a vast case rate could still be a high number.
The other side, hundreds of millions ‘boosted’ will avoid infection, and hopefully (too soon to say) avoid severe illness.
We’ve had our first death from Omicron in this Country. I wonder how many more will follow?
But for now, the variant I am still most scared of is Delta. That’s killing 150ish people per day.
If Omicron can kill 150 per day in a largely vaccinated population, (having not done it in SA….yet) we are in for a very bad 2022. I would be totally shocked though. My completely amateur guess is that Omicron kills 1/10,000 people infected. That means about 3,000 people will die if 30m are infected. Whilst that is awful & tragic, it’s certainly no Delta. Fingers crossed that the SA death rate and ventilation in hospitals stays exceptionally low. More than happy for the Government to gaslight the population with the goal of getting more boosters in arms too.
Not from. With. Could have died “from” any reason.
He was an anti-vaxxer and died from Covid, assuming the caller to LBC was genuine.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/omicron-caller-vaccination-lbc-b1977423.html