Uncle Buck
Ghost Writer
- Jul 7, 2003
- 28,075
But surely if Swann is injured Monty is a better bet than Tredwell?
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Ashes Squad Poll
- Thread starter keaton
- Start date
But surely if Swann is injured Monty is a better bet than Tredwell?
sten_super
Brain Surgeon
Yes, but my post was a rebuttal of your suggestion that two offies shouldn't go because they wouldn't work in the same side. England won't play 2 spinners on the tour so it's a moot point.
Agreed, they were competitive, but we're not talking about being competitive, we're talking about trying to beat (or at least draw with) Australia in their own back yard. IMHO Graeme Swann is crucial to that, and without him I think we'd need pretty much ALL of the other bowlers to be on song.
keaton
Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
- Nov 18, 2004
- 9,973
- Thread starter
- #23
From Mike Selvey
In his seminal book The Art of Captaincy, Mike Brearley describes the process of selecting Test and touring parties. It involved a convenient venue for the captain, usually Lord's for Brearley, who notes there was "wine, beer and juice available, and salads and cheese laid out on a trolley. We would rarely be interrupted and we would stay until we had finished the job".
How times have changed. There were no central contracts in Brearley's day, of course, so things were less clear cut – in fact it is doubtful whether some selectors even got to see much cricket. Now there is a full-time national selector in Geoff Miller, who heads up a panel including James Whitaker and Ashley Giles. In practice this trio are facilitators, identifying players to fit within a strategy outlined by Andy Flower and Andrew Strauss who, in conjunction with the Australian-born bowling coach David Saker, pick the teams.
So there will have been no late-night meeting of any consequence this week before Thursday's announcement of the party that will defend the Ashes in Australia at the end of the year. Numerous selection discussions will have taken place over dinner, on the dressing room balcony and over the phone, but this team was all but decided several months ago.
England will take an official party of 16, but in effect this will be doubled by the performance squad that will be in Australia not just to provide players who are match-fit and can be called up in case of injury, but to give alternatives should circumstances dictate that a different type of player is needed.
However, unless there is a catastrophic absence of form during the three warm-up matches in Perth, Adelaide and Hobart we can name the 11 for the first Test in Brisbane as those who played the last Test of the summer at Lord's, with the inclusion of Ian Bell for Eoin Morgan, who will nonetheless be in the party.
That strategy for the first Test has been clear all summer and is spot on (it is the balance England should have fielded in Brisbane last time). However, for the rest of the series it will vary according to venue, pitch, weather and circumstance, as of course it should. Previous stereotyping of Australian pitches should not be taken as the norm now: Perth is no longer the fastest pitch in the world and Sydney is not the sand pit it once was. There is talk, too, of attempting to tickle pitches to suit Australia's attack and negate Graeme Swann, though this would only help England's seamers, while Swann gets wickets in all conditions.
This leaves just four places to be decided, two pace bowlers, a second spinner and a second wicketkeeper. The first seam bowling spot should go to the young Yorkshireman Ajmal Shahzad, who played against Bangladesh at Old Trafford. In his second spell in the Bangladesh first innings he reverse-swung the old ball at 90 mph and, significantly, both ways – a rarity. He is the closest England have come to reproducing what Simon Jones brought to the attack.
His inclusion will be subject to assurances that he has recovered fully from the ankle injury he suffered during the summer and which he tried to hide from management. He would also need to undergo strength and conditioning training to ensure that his pace does not drop during matches, as it did at Old Trafford. Do not discount the possibility of him playing in Adelaide, where the pitch is sure to be flat, unforgiving but above all abrasive.
The final pace-bowling place is harder to call and might demand a difficult decision. In the absence of Graeme Onions, and with Ryan Sidebottom having been told that he had no Test or one-day future beyond the occasional Twenty20 match, thus precipitating his international retirement this week, Shahzad provides swing bowling cover for Jimmy Anderson. But what of the tall bowlers, Stuart Broad and Steve Finn? It has been Tim Bresnan who has ploughed his industrious uncomplaining furrow in the squad, and made himself an integral and popular part of the one-day side. But although the Australians recognise him as someone who jars the bat hard, he doesn't fit the bill here. His one-day tendency to veer wide on the crease and slant the ball into the body becomes a handicap in Tests.
So we come to Chris Tremlett, whose move to Surrey appears to have paid dividends in terms of fitness and confidence, with 48 championship wickets at around 20 apiece. Tremlett has impressed Saker and ought to get the place.
Steve Davies made 1,000 runs and was second only to Mark Ramprakash in the Surrey averages. Add this to his one-day success for England and he is the certainty as Matt Prior's deputy. Which leaves only the second spinner. The primary consideration is who could replace Swann as a single spinner in a four-man attack? There is but one answer. Swann's extraordinary success has blinded many to the fact that Monty Panesar is a world-class spin bowler, who has 126 Test wickets with eight five-fors, more than any postwar spinner except Derek Underwood, Jim Laker, Tony Lock and Swann.
Panesar was kept out of the England system to allow him to rediscover his game at Sussex after some personal struggles at Northamptonshire and he has responded well. He will bowl tight, to properly set fields, as a back-up to the seamers. It is not a role that Adil Rashid could fill but those who champion his cause should know that if the situation demanded a second spinner as an attacking option, he could be drafted in.
Possible squad: Strauss, Cook, Trott, Pietersen, Bell, Collingwood, Morgan, Prior, Davies, Swann, Panesar, Broad, Anderson, Finn, Shahzad, Tremlett
In his seminal book The Art of Captaincy, Mike Brearley describes the process of selecting Test and touring parties. It involved a convenient venue for the captain, usually Lord's for Brearley, who notes there was "wine, beer and juice available, and salads and cheese laid out on a trolley. We would rarely be interrupted and we would stay until we had finished the job".
How times have changed. There were no central contracts in Brearley's day, of course, so things were less clear cut – in fact it is doubtful whether some selectors even got to see much cricket. Now there is a full-time national selector in Geoff Miller, who heads up a panel including James Whitaker and Ashley Giles. In practice this trio are facilitators, identifying players to fit within a strategy outlined by Andy Flower and Andrew Strauss who, in conjunction with the Australian-born bowling coach David Saker, pick the teams.
So there will have been no late-night meeting of any consequence this week before Thursday's announcement of the party that will defend the Ashes in Australia at the end of the year. Numerous selection discussions will have taken place over dinner, on the dressing room balcony and over the phone, but this team was all but decided several months ago.
England will take an official party of 16, but in effect this will be doubled by the performance squad that will be in Australia not just to provide players who are match-fit and can be called up in case of injury, but to give alternatives should circumstances dictate that a different type of player is needed.
However, unless there is a catastrophic absence of form during the three warm-up matches in Perth, Adelaide and Hobart we can name the 11 for the first Test in Brisbane as those who played the last Test of the summer at Lord's, with the inclusion of Ian Bell for Eoin Morgan, who will nonetheless be in the party.
That strategy for the first Test has been clear all summer and is spot on (it is the balance England should have fielded in Brisbane last time). However, for the rest of the series it will vary according to venue, pitch, weather and circumstance, as of course it should. Previous stereotyping of Australian pitches should not be taken as the norm now: Perth is no longer the fastest pitch in the world and Sydney is not the sand pit it once was. There is talk, too, of attempting to tickle pitches to suit Australia's attack and negate Graeme Swann, though this would only help England's seamers, while Swann gets wickets in all conditions.
This leaves just four places to be decided, two pace bowlers, a second spinner and a second wicketkeeper. The first seam bowling spot should go to the young Yorkshireman Ajmal Shahzad, who played against Bangladesh at Old Trafford. In his second spell in the Bangladesh first innings he reverse-swung the old ball at 90 mph and, significantly, both ways – a rarity. He is the closest England have come to reproducing what Simon Jones brought to the attack.
His inclusion will be subject to assurances that he has recovered fully from the ankle injury he suffered during the summer and which he tried to hide from management. He would also need to undergo strength and conditioning training to ensure that his pace does not drop during matches, as it did at Old Trafford. Do not discount the possibility of him playing in Adelaide, where the pitch is sure to be flat, unforgiving but above all abrasive.
The final pace-bowling place is harder to call and might demand a difficult decision. In the absence of Graeme Onions, and with Ryan Sidebottom having been told that he had no Test or one-day future beyond the occasional Twenty20 match, thus precipitating his international retirement this week, Shahzad provides swing bowling cover for Jimmy Anderson. But what of the tall bowlers, Stuart Broad and Steve Finn? It has been Tim Bresnan who has ploughed his industrious uncomplaining furrow in the squad, and made himself an integral and popular part of the one-day side. But although the Australians recognise him as someone who jars the bat hard, he doesn't fit the bill here. His one-day tendency to veer wide on the crease and slant the ball into the body becomes a handicap in Tests.
So we come to Chris Tremlett, whose move to Surrey appears to have paid dividends in terms of fitness and confidence, with 48 championship wickets at around 20 apiece. Tremlett has impressed Saker and ought to get the place.
Steve Davies made 1,000 runs and was second only to Mark Ramprakash in the Surrey averages. Add this to his one-day success for England and he is the certainty as Matt Prior's deputy. Which leaves only the second spinner. The primary consideration is who could replace Swann as a single spinner in a four-man attack? There is but one answer. Swann's extraordinary success has blinded many to the fact that Monty Panesar is a world-class spin bowler, who has 126 Test wickets with eight five-fors, more than any postwar spinner except Derek Underwood, Jim Laker, Tony Lock and Swann.
Panesar was kept out of the England system to allow him to rediscover his game at Sussex after some personal struggles at Northamptonshire and he has responded well. He will bowl tight, to properly set fields, as a back-up to the seamers. It is not a role that Adil Rashid could fill but those who champion his cause should know that if the situation demanded a second spinner as an attacking option, he could be drafted in.
Possible squad: Strauss, Cook, Trott, Pietersen, Bell, Collingwood, Morgan, Prior, Davies, Swann, Panesar, Broad, Anderson, Finn, Shahzad, Tremlett
John Bumlick
Banned
i sincerely hope the 2 current votes for Harmison (one of them is mine) are for Morgan (as the poll poster said votes for Harmison will count for Morgan, in case you missed it).
sten_super
Brain Surgeon
Excellent piece from Selvey, and he makes compelling cases for all of those players. It's difficult to argue with any of it really!
Gritt23
New member
Is Onions still injured?
Yes
Can't argue with what Selvey has to say. Rashid's going to have the spinner's role in the not-too-distant future and would be better served going on the Lions tour and getting some overs in rather than repeat last winter's escapades of carrying the drinks.
keaton
Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
- Nov 18, 2004
- 9,973
- Thread starter
- #29
I like Selvey's writing a lot, and generally the Guardian have the best cricket writing.
I think Panesar is the only choice to bring as back-up to Swann, the only reason i'd take Rashid is if they're convinced they'll play two spinners in one of the tests
I think Panesar is the only choice to bring as back-up to Swann, the only reason i'd take Rashid is if they're convinced they'll play two spinners in one of the tests
Uncle Buck
Ghost Writer
- Jul 7, 2003
- 28,075
It is not though. Firstly if Swann is injured Monty is a test class player, Tredwell is not.
Also listening to TMS earlier, they are suggesting that Adelaide and Sydney, England may well play 2 spinners, with a front line batsman dropping out, and Finn and Bresnan and a spinner playing. On the basis Bresnan can bat a bit.
Foster House
New member
Not to Australia. We have taken 3 before !
Is this Groundhog Day?
Uncle Buck
Ghost Writer
- Jul 7, 2003
- 28,075
Still be stupid to take 2 off spinners.
It can't be that interesting: 12 of the team are nailed on, two are almost nailed-on and there are only doubts on two.
The "interesting" could mean that Woakes has got the nod over Bresnan or Tremlett. Or that Rashid is going. Or that someone else completely left-field has been picked but we all know the bulk of the squad.
It's not like the old days when there would be real speculation on half a touring team... I miss that.
Marshy
Well-known member
it is a 16 man squad i thought...
Trufflehound
Re-enfranchised
He's still in a pickle.
sten_super
Brain Surgeon
So Shahzad has been left out in favour of Tremlett, with Bresnan going. Monty gets the second spinners spot. Nothing else even remotely controversial. A couple of interesting young picks in the Lions squad, such as James Taylor (Leicestershire), Ben Stokes (Durham) and Maurice Chambers (Essex).
England Ashes Test squad:
Andrew Strauss (captain, Middlesex), Alastair Cook (vice-captain, Essex), James Anderson (Lancashire), Ian Bell (Warwickshire), Tim Bresnan (Yorkshire), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Paul Collingwood (Durham), Steven Davies (wk, Surrey), Steven Finn (Middlesex), Eoin Morgan (Middlesex), Monty Panesar (Sussex), Kevin Pietersen (Hampshire), Matt Prior (wk, Sussex), Graeme Swann (Nottinghamshire), Chris Tremlett (Surrey), Jonathan Trott (Warwickshire).
England performance programme squad:
Jimmy Adams (Hampshire), Jonny Bairstow (wk, Yorkshire), Danny Briggs (Hampshire), Michael Carberry (Hampshire), Maurice Chambers (Essex), Jade Dernbach (Surrey), Andrew Gale (Yorkshire), James Hildreth (Somerset), Craig Kieswetter (wk, Somerset), Adam Lyth (Yorkshire), Liam Plunkett (Durham), Ajmal Shahzad (Yorkshire), Ben Stokes (Durham), James Taylor (Leicestershire), James Tredwell (Kent), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire).
England central contracts:
Strauss, Anderson, Bell, Broad, Collingwood, Cook, Finn, Pietersen, Prior, Swann, Trott.
Incremental contracts:
Ravi Bopara (Essex), Bresnan, Morgan, Luke Wright (Sussex), Michael Yardy (Sussex).
England Ashes Test squad:
Andrew Strauss (captain, Middlesex), Alastair Cook (vice-captain, Essex), James Anderson (Lancashire), Ian Bell (Warwickshire), Tim Bresnan (Yorkshire), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Paul Collingwood (Durham), Steven Davies (wk, Surrey), Steven Finn (Middlesex), Eoin Morgan (Middlesex), Monty Panesar (Sussex), Kevin Pietersen (Hampshire), Matt Prior (wk, Sussex), Graeme Swann (Nottinghamshire), Chris Tremlett (Surrey), Jonathan Trott (Warwickshire).
England performance programme squad:
Jimmy Adams (Hampshire), Jonny Bairstow (wk, Yorkshire), Danny Briggs (Hampshire), Michael Carberry (Hampshire), Maurice Chambers (Essex), Jade Dernbach (Surrey), Andrew Gale (Yorkshire), James Hildreth (Somerset), Craig Kieswetter (wk, Somerset), Adam Lyth (Yorkshire), Liam Plunkett (Durham), Ajmal Shahzad (Yorkshire), Ben Stokes (Durham), James Taylor (Leicestershire), James Tredwell (Kent), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire).
England central contracts:
Strauss, Anderson, Bell, Broad, Collingwood, Cook, Finn, Pietersen, Prior, Swann, Trott.
Incremental contracts:
Ravi Bopara (Essex), Bresnan, Morgan, Luke Wright (Sussex), Michael Yardy (Sussex).
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,274
In 6 days time Carberry will be 30. I don't get his inclusion.
