[Politics] Artists Boycotting Barclays...

[Eeyore]

But it has hasn't it?

Most pleased if I'm wrong there.

 

[BBassic]

Agreed.

But you aren't expecting your actions to change those policies are you?
You are also taking a direct stand against the company you disagree with.

In this specific case we are talking about trying to stop a state from committing war crimes.
Cancelling a Disney+ subscription is not impacting Israel in the slightest.

Cancelling a Disney+ subscription might not (read: absolutely won't) make a blind bit of difference to Israel. But if it means that the people doing it can say they've made a choice that they're happy with then more power to them

I boycotted the last two World Cups in protest at the countries hosting them. That also didn't make a jot of difference but I made a stand, meek as it was, to honour my own sense of morality.

I won't be cancelling Disney+ though. I've just gotten into Grey's Anatomy and there's 20 bloody seasons of it to watch!

 

[Uh_huh_him]

I don't agree with that at all. I think it's excellent that we have a new generation which is so questioning.

Me refusing ever to buy or read The Sun newspaper has made no difference to its profits whatsoever. But I still refuse to buy it. It's just a personal standard, not virtue signaling

As regard smashing in Barclays windows, nope, I don't agree with that. It's a criminal act

But your actions do make a difference to Sun's profits.
Minimal sure, but they do make a difference.
It is direct action against something you disagree with.

I agree that it's excellent that the upcoming generation are informed and questioning.
However in this case, I don't see that the proposed action, serves any purpose.

 

[A1X]

Walt will be spinning in his grave.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Boycotting Barclays is pointless. I prefer to boycott purchasing Israeli produce, which I have done for many, many years now.

Boycotting a whole nation? Not one to flinch from extremism, then. What would be a win for you?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I don't buy Nike products because of their use of forced / child labour. I don't use Amazon because they are tax evaders. Do Nike and Amazon care? Absolutely not. But I can rest easy at night knowing that I am doing, in my view, the right thing.

Would I like the rest of the world to boycott these organisations? Yes, of course I would but I know it is never going to happen. But just because I'm in a tiny minority should I just accept I can't change anything and bundle in with everyone else? Well, that's never going to happen.

By extension should you then boycott the Albion? How about, say, the Albion getting into bed with crypto platform eToro which actually warns that a very large percentage of 'investors' may lose money? And what of American Express itself? Is it pro or anti Israel? Tricky tightrope for any corporate entity. Not wishing to beat the Albion with a stick, just ysing them as an example to re-emphasise my point that you can drill down into any organisation, however benign, and find something that will offend somebody to the point of boycott

 

[SeagullinExile]

Boycotting a whole nation? Not one to flinch from extremism, then. What would be a win for you?

Hmmm. Refusing to buy produce from a country is hardly extremism. People refused to buy South African goods during apartheid. Were they extremists?

A win for me? Israel withdrawing from the land they have illegally occupied for decades.

 

[BBassic]

By extension should you then boycott the Albion? How about, say, the Albion getting into bed with crypto platform eToro which actually warns that a very large percentage of 'investors' may lose money? And what of American Express itself? Is it pro or anti Israel? Tricky tightrope for any corporate entity. Not wishing to beat the Albion with a stick, just ysing them as an example to re-emphasise my point that you can drill down into any organisation, however benign, and find something that will offend somebody to the point of boycott

That's the same line of reasoning, which I don't necessarily disagree with, that our Geordie friends use to wave away any criticism of their club being owned by a nation state which dismembers journalists.

"Oh, but if you don't like Saudi then you shouldn't watch Disney because the PIF has shares in Disney".

I get it as an argument - if Thing X is bad then Things Y & Z must by association also be bad.

There's only so much any one person can do to try and stay in line with their own ethics and morals because nothing is clean anymore.

The computer I'm using to type this has probably got conflict material in it. My mobile phone almost certainly does. So by the logic above I should not be using either of them. Climate change is a thing and the Internet which we use to talk about the merits of Graham Potter vs Fabian Huzeler contributes an estimated billion tonnes of greenhouse emissions each year. So somebody should be switching that off too.

But we can't. We can't protest every single thing. We can't boycott everything. Or we could. But then we'd find ourselves sitting in a field eating grass. Which would probably itself be boycotted for taking the natural food of the cows. Or something.

I don't know. I'm rambling - life is hard. Having morals is hard. It was all so much easier when I was 13 and the only moral choices I had to make were in videogames.

 

[abc]

There's been a lot of band-wagon jumping and virtue signalling in recent weeks by artists first boycotting the Great Escape and now Latitude Festival because of Barclays sponsorship. The belief is that Barclays are financing the Isreali war on the Palestinians and that they invest in the defence companies that supply the IDF.
I have no affection for Barclays but a bit of basic research shows that like all major banks and financial services firms Barclays provides a service for their customers to invest. If a client wants to buy shares in a British defence firm then Barclays will execute the deal; Barclays themselves are not stumping-up the cash. You could argue that they are still involved in the financing process, but why single them out and boycott the events that they are linked to? Every bank/City firm will have clients invested in the same defence firms, and those banks and firms also sponsor the arts, sport, museums, etc. etc.

Why are Barclays being singled out? (it was the same during apartheid). Surely all the banks are doing the same for their clients?

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

That's the same line of reasoning, which I don't necessarily disagree with, that our Geordie friends use to wave away any criticism of their club being owned by a nation state which dismembers journalists.

"Oh, but if you don't like Saudi then you shouldn't watch Disney because the PIF has shares in Disney".

I get it as an argument - if Thing X is bad then Things Y & Z must by association also be bad.

There's only so much any one person can do to try and stay in line with their own ethics and morals because nothing is clean anymore.

The computer I'm using to type this has probably got conflict material in it. My mobile phone almost certainly does. So by the logic above I should not be using either of them. Climate change is a thing and the Internet which we use to talk about the merits of Graham Potter vs Fabian Huzeler contributes an estimated billion tonnes of greenhouse emissions each year. So somebody should be switching that off too.

But we can't. We can't protest every single thing. We can't boycott everything. Or we could. But then we'd find ourselves sitting in a field eating grass. Which would probably itself be boycotted for taking the natural food of the cows. Or something.

I don't know. I'm rambling - life is hard. Having morals is hard. It was all so much easier when I was 13 and the only moral choices I had to make were in videogames.

Well yes you are rambling, but your initial point is right.

The "whatabout this then" argument widely is used by people to justify to themselves and others not to take any ethical consumer decisions.

You're right, you can't boycott everything. Every consumer decision you make in life is basically weighing shit thing one against shit thing two.

But you can select what's important to you and cut those things out of your life. And I think it's fine to tell others why you've done so. If they want to go along with you they can.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Why are Barclays being singled out? (it was the same during apartheid). Surely all the banks are doing the same for their clients?

Maybe then the others who haven't yet been singled out will have a board meeting and get their house in order.

It's not about fairness to the bank. It's about trying to change things for the better

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Hmmm. Refusing to buy produce from a country is hardly extremism. People refused to buy South African goods during apartheid. Were they extremists?

A win for me? Israel withdrawing from the land they have illegally occupied for decades.

That's a good answer. That's an outcome I'd like to see, also.

Sadly I cannot see how this can be achieved until the Israelis vote out the extremists who support the occupations and want to expand them.

Unfortunately elements among these Jewish right wing extremists have already assassinated one labour PM and seem to exert control over Likud via their involvement in the right wing coalition.

What is needed is some grown up engagement from the people who matter. For example weaning the US away from their 'Israel right or wrong' stance. There were signs recently that this was beginning to happen under Biden. But Biden has to fend off those who support Israel and in addition, Trump, who has decided to weaponize unequivocal support for Likud as part of his strategy against Biden.

The good people of Israel who want a stable settlement are in a minority now that Palestine has literally been weaponized, and that Hamas have become the 'no turning back' enemy of Israel, who won't rest till the Jews are thrown into the sea.

We need adults to engage. We need Likud voted out of power. We need to incentivize Israel to change course. (By 'we' I mean USA). And we need to trust Hamas to not launch further attacks. Unfortunately I don't trust Hamas, and sadly I trust the militant Jewish occupationists even less; people I suspect who would embrace civil war to maintain pursuit and control of 'birthright' lands (West Bank), and have shown they are happy to kill their own Jewish prime minister if he disapproves. All in all, a three pipe problem, not one to be solved simply by buying Spanish oranges.

 

[Stato]

My daughter told me this was happening. As with all the music she tells me about, I patronisingly referred her to the original. Some of us haven't yet stopped boycotting Barclays over their 1980s involvement in Apartheid era South Africa. I know it's ancient history, but if you think I'm giving up any excuse that allows me to tell people to turn off Queen records....

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Out of interest, who should I bank with - HSBC? They’re notoriously ethical.

All the major banks have shady shit in their past (and undoubtedly many in their present). Where does the line get drawn?

Doing business in Russia? China?

It’s absolutely pointless. By all means take a moral stand if it makes you feel better, but realise it’s only for you and nobody else gives a shit.

In the 1970s there was a big boycott Barclays movement because of investment in South Africa of apartheid times. I wasn’t a Barclayes customer anyway, but I am sure it came to it that all the major banks of the time had investments in South Africa.

but I agree with @hans kraay fan club that you can/should feel free to boycott something according to your own conscience. I have similar views about Wetherspoons and Tim Martin, if I were in the market for such equipment I wouldn’t buy JCB, I have not used P&O ferries since their sacking of all their crews and EXPLOITING personnel of other nationalities. I could go on…..

 

[SeagullinExile]

That's a good answer. That's an outcome I'd like to see, also.

Sadly I cannot see how this can be achieved until the Israelis vote out the extremists who support the occupations and want to expand them.

Unfortunately elements among these Jewish right wing extremists have already assassinated one labour PM and seem to exert control over Likud via their involvement in the right wing coalition.

What is needed is some grown up engagement from the people who matter. For example weaning the US away from their 'Israel right or wrong' stance. There were signs recently that this was beginning to happen under Biden. But Biden has to fend off those who support Israel and in addition, Trump, who has decided to weaponize unequivocal support for Likud as part of his strategy against Biden.

The good people of Israel who want a stable settlement are in a minority now that Palestine has literally been weaponized, and that Hamas have become the 'no turning back' enemy of Israel, who won't rest till the Jews are thrown into the sea.

We need adults to engage. We need Likud voted out of power. We need to incentivize Israel to change course. (By 'we' I mean USA). And we need to trust Hamas to not launch further attacks. Unfortunately I don't trust Hamas, and sadly I trust the militant Jewish occupationists even less; people I suspect who would embrace civil war to maintain pursuit and control of 'birthright' lands (West Bank), and have shown they are happy to kill their own Jewish prime minister if he disapproves. All in all, a three pipe problem, not one to be solved simply by buying Spanish oranges.

Good reply. Absolutely, the Zionist extremists have way too much power, and it is up to normal Israeli’s to remove that power. There are some incredibly brave young Israeli’s that refuse to serve in the IDF. These youngsters would rather serve prison time than do national service. It’s also these people that are the future, so hopefully over time things will change.

We can only hope anyway.

 

[keaton]

Precisely.

There is a big difference between being 'connected' via the labyrinth of the modern world, and being an active campaigner for Likud.

I resigned from my union a few years ago after it passed a motion to 'boycott' Israel and anyone who has any connection with Israel. I complained at the singling out of one nation and not others, and was told if I wanted to put forward a motion to boycott China, Russia, Zimbabwe, Yemen, Iran or whoever I could do so. As if that makes it right. As it happens the motion, which was passed by the local 'chapel', by around 20 votes to 5 (there are over 1,000 people in the chapel) was rejected by the national executive.

Sadly an element of yoof left, representatives of whom were singing 'O Jeremy Corbyn' at Glasto, are suckers for boycotting Israel. And Barclays bank. When I was a student in the 70s we were urged to boycott Barclay's then because they invested in South Africa.

This particular element of yoof left are a bit of an embarrassment, and are causing needless consternation, and irritating the 'sensible' left (of which I count myself as a member). I am sure it wouldn't take much digging to unearth an anti-Semitic agenda in there.

Yeah I mean what good came from the boycotting of South Africa?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yeah I mean what good came from the boycotting of South Africa?

I said boycotting Barclays Bank. Nothing ever came of that. Boycotting South Africa was an entirely different matter. This is interesting: https://www.history.com/news/end-apartheid-steps

I scanned it for some text on the importance of boycotting. At the time I personally boycotted South Africa in full, eschewing Cape bananas, etc. It certainly made me feel I was on the right side of History. Unfortunatelt Thatcher did not share my views. Nor did Reagan, although congress pushed through sanctions, which is where impact starts to become reality. I addition (from the link above):

"Visser speculates that the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989 helped speed the process of ending apartheid along because it took away one of the government’s main defenses of itself among Western allies: that it needed to remain in place to fight communism. “The argument that the ANC are only the puppets of the Reds couldn’t be used anymore,” Visser says, both because the Cold War was ending and because the ANC now had a lot more support in Europe and the U.S."

 

[SAC]

Being an ethical consumer is hard right? Every company leaves some sort of undesirable footprint.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Companies care deeply about their reputations (well, most do). If there's no consumer pressure to behave ethically and to consider the social and environmental impacts of their behaviour, they will start behaving even worse.

My approach. If a company is acting in a way you don't like. Boycott them. Tell everyone who you're boycotting and why and ignore the what abouters of this world and definitely ignore anyone who tells you that you're virtue signalling. The way I see it, if you're going to virtue signal, you need at least some virtue to signal.

I agree with most of this. I'm happy to boycott although I don't tell anyone as whoever you tell is most likely to come back with whatabout which I often have no answer to. My boycott of Barclays and Shell started 35 years ago and I see no reason to stop it now! The fact that other banks and oil companies are (probably) just as bad is irrelevant.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

Cancelling Disney+ won't make a jot of difference. And she's knows this. But it's a way to try to overcome the feeling of powerlessness that comes with waking up everyday and seeing news of another 100+ Palestinian women, children and innocent men being obliterated with the weapons provided by OUR country's firms and that of our allies.

 

[de la zouch]

Good reply. Absolutely, the Zionist extremists have way too much power, and it is up to normal Israeli’s to remove that power. There are some incredibly brave young Israeli’s that refuse to serve in the IDF. These youngsters would rather serve prison time than do national service. It’s also these people that are the future, so hopefully over time things will change.

We can only hope anyway.

Oh wow the Zionists have too much power line! We run the world don’t you know!! Perhaps run that line past the man who runs our football club