[Albion] Article - Football Changed and Chris Hughton Didn’t Keep Up

[darkwolf666]

I think the thread title does Chris Hughton a massive disservice, I cannot believe that a manager who was capable of playing expansive football in the two complete seasons he managed us in the Championship suddenly got “left behind” over the course of two seasons.

Have managerial ideas changed so much in that time? Have we all missed some industrial revolution of football management?

Personally I think not.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Hughton, like Warnock, struggles in the Prem but excels in the Championship and I do not see anything to suggest Hughton cannot deliver again at the right club.

You know what you will get with Hughton and there are plenty of Championship chairman who would love to have the problem of what to do with him after 2 seasons in the Prem.

That's a little harsh.
I believe I'm right in saying Hughton has never been relegated and Warnock has never stayed up.

 

[Guinness Boy]

We can argue and must disagree about CH's ability as a manager last season, the reasons that explain our poor performance on the pitch/and his ability to develop his existing squad, especially the new signings. And ultimately whether this meant he deserved another season. Clearly Bloom felt otherwise.
But i thought there was a consensus about the values that CH brings to the job, an acknowledgment that he isn't stuck in the past or a "dinosaur" (you said that earlier in the thread GB) and despite being a youthful 60 was still open to modern ideas and coaching trends especially compared to the 70 year old Warnock still looking to keep a club in the Premier league for at least 1 season. But clearly thats up for discussion too. Oh well.

That said. Nobody is insulting anyone here. So apologies if thats inferred. No need to escalate things. Its only a silly NSC thread! sorry.

The problem with writing stuff like this is that just by NOT saying something the meaning can be misconstrued.

I don’t think Hughton is a dinosaur, just that there are other, newer approaches to football at our level and above (I.e. International) that have been successful and that I agree with Bloom that we need to try. Furthermore there are in vogue football trends (the press) that not only could we not execute but that we were vulnerable against.

I do believe he’s a mile away from Warnock but I also believe he’s a mile away from Klopp, Poch, Smug Eddie and Nuno. Only time will tell if we should add Potter to that list or if, in fact, we’ve made a terrible mistake.

On the whole I think this has been a decent thread with some excellent points raised on both sides. Hopefully see you in the WSU for a Bovril in the new season.


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[Uh_huh_him]

FFS, I said he struggles in the Prem. Norwich thought he was going to get them relegated so sacked him, Bloom thought he was going to get us relegated so sacked him. How can you say that's nothing like Warnock? Both of them are managers that are always likely to struggle in the Premier League.

If Hughton really is one of those managers who keeps teams up in the Prem then he'll hold out until the Autumn when Prem chairman start panicking and sacking their managers. I suspect that won't happen because they'll be worried about the 3 wins in 23 bit, just like Bloom was.

He really is a manager that keeps teams in the Premier league.
He has done it with us.

Pullis and BFS do it the same way (defensive solidity) - but also by spending a lot of money.

By all accounts he is holding out for a Premier League opportunity.
The negative press, that we have received for getting rid of him, may help him in that regard.

I hope he gets another shot at a premier league club.

But I understand why Bloom got rid of him.
i.e. "What's the point of spending £130m on players, when he ended up using the championship squad to stay up?"

 

[chaileyjem]

On the whole I think this has been a decent thread with some excellent points raised on both sides. Hopefully see you in the WSU for a Bovril in the new season.

Ha ! i'm not tearing my season ticket in half if thats what you mean !!

 

[Guinness Boy]

Ha ! i'm not tearing my season ticket in half if thats what you mean !!

I should hope not! No, just meant would be good tol catch you for a pre match chat early next season. I would buy you a beer but I believe you're off them!

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Johnny Giles who left RTE three years ago.

So what - he does weekly radio on a national radio station in Ireland as well as a column in the Evening Herald.

Shane Long, 10 goals in 88 games over the last three seasons.

And he is still paid half a million a year more than the highest paid player at Brighton - that is how much he is valued by Southampton.

You say a little club could never win the title again and then mention Leicester as an aberration.

Once in nearly 30 years - and it might happen again in another 30 years - but that is even unlikely if Sky keep funding the top six teams.

You say Hughton was in demand but we certainly weren’t fending off big clubs with a shitty stick.

Try reading what I actually wrote - when he was sacked by Norwich he had multiple offers to join PL clubs as assistant manager. Since he has been sacked by Brighton he has been linked with WBA, Middlesbrough, Swansea and Celtic (that we know of). As long as he was wanted in Brighton he wasn't going to go anywhere else - that is the nature of the guy. Now that he has been sacked he will have multiple opportunities to go back to work.

Still, at least we now know where you’re from.

Really - got the lotto numbers for next week as well?

 

[Iggle Piggle]

No idea what he could be referring to.... [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] thread is one of the more intelligent debates we've had in a while which has now been tabloided. Naive, disrespect, long ball. Colours nailed to the mast.

[tweet] 1131090789768015873[/tweet]

 

[chaileyjem]

I should hope not! No, just meant would be good tol catch you for a pre match chat early next season. I would buy you a beer but I believe you're off them!

Yep. Great. Look forward to it. and Still on the bovril , tea, coke zero. Even last season couldn't drive me back to the booze.

 

[Guinness Boy]

No idea what he could be referring to.... [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] thread is one of the more intelligent debates we've had in a while which has now been tabloided. Naive, disrespect, long ball. Colours nailed to the mast.

[tweet] 1131090789768015873[/tweet]

Bless him. No link to the article, just insinuation. He may be sore from the rebuttal piece I did on my blog when he criticised Brighton fans for missing the Reading game. Or maybe he's forgotten all about that and just not read this thread fully or properly,

 

[perseus]

Disappointed; it was all going so well after the first survival season.

I thought just remedy the set pieces and we would be mid-table without any new players.

We sorted out the set pieces at both ends and suddenly the not too prolific goals from open play went down too almost zero. I was beginning to get worried at the turn of the year.

Then I thought we played well in the 0-0 draw with Watford; if we could shoot like Man City we could have won 11-0.

Then we got outplayed against Southampton (worried), outwitted v Burnley (annoyed), disaster against Bournemouth (horrified), surprised against plucky Cardiff (congrats to Mendes-Laing).

I didn't like the team selection vs Man City in the Cup (annoyed!).

 

[Acker79]

The article is an interesting look at your journey from being 'Hughton in' to 'Hughton out', but I don't see how it really argues the case of the title. You mention the gap at the top of the table, but not how that relates to Hughton, Brighton, or the football they played. You don't do anything to address or account for the underlying funding difference and expectation, the difference between being a comparatively well funded Championship club performing and getting results that match such a budget, and why being a comparatively underfunded premier league club isn't enough to explain the difference that leads to the conclusion of him not moving with the times.

 

[darkwolf666]

The article is an interesting look at your journey from being 'Hughton in' to 'Hughton out', but I don't see how it really argues the case of the title. You mention the gap at the top of the table, but not how that relates to Hughton, Brighton, or the football they played. You don't do anything to address or account for the underlying funding difference and expectation, the difference between being a comparatively well funded Championship club performing and getting results that match such a budget, and why being a comparatively underfunded premier league club isn't enough to explain the difference that leads to the conclusion of him not moving with the times.

Sean Dyche must be really behind the times, as Burnley dropped 8 places in a season!

 

[Guinness Boy]

The article is an interesting look at your journey from being 'Hughton in' to 'Hughton out', but I don't see how it really argues the case of the title. You mention the gap at the top of the table, but not how that relates to Hughton, Brighton, or the football they played. You don't do anything to address or account for the underlying funding difference and expectation, the difference between being a comparatively well funded Championship club performing and getting results that match such a budget, and why being a comparatively underfunded premier league club isn't enough to explain the difference that leads to the conclusion of him not moving with the times.

I've only got around 1000 words. After that people switch off. It becomes Too Long Didn't Read. I'd much rather introduce a premise based around my own experiences and let people debate it than prove a point beyond reasonable doubt. This is neither academia nor a court of law.

Nevertheless the point is proven in relation to Potter and changing times. Once Tony decided he was fed up with increasingly dull performances that yielded fewer and fewer points there was only one direction to go in. As I said to Jem it's not only Poch and Klopp that I compare CH to because they are out of our world. I don't think he's as modern or forward thinking as Smug Eddie, Nuno and Hassenhutti. Gracia has worked miracles at Watford.

Furthermore we could not play against the most obvious modern ploy, the press. I've said that over and over. Teams did not press to a decent standard in the Championship when we were in it. But that was two seasons ago and, yes, I belive the game has moved on miles just in two seasons.

Bottom line - I've not said all that in the piece but I've said that and more on the thread.

Sean Dyche must be really behind the times, as Burnley dropped 8 places in a season!

Dyche is way behind the times. The team that beat us to most long balls and fewest shots? Burnley. I don't think the majority of our fans would want him in charge here.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_long_balls

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_scoring_att

 

[darkwolf666]

I've only got around 1000 words. After that people switch off. It becomes Too Long Didn't Read. I'd much rather introduce a premise based around my own experiences and let people debate it than prove a point beyond reasonable doubt. This is neither academia nor a court of law.

Nevertheless the point is proven in realtion to Potter and changing times. Once Tony decided he was fed up with increasingly dull performances that yielded fewer and fewer points there was only one direction to go in. As I said to Jem it's not only Poch and Klopp that I compare him to because they are out of our world. I don't think he's as modern or forward thinking as Smug Eddie, Nuno and Hassenhutti. Gracia has worked miracles at Watford.

Furthermore we could not play against the most obvious modern ploy, the press. I've said that over and over. Teams didi not press to a decent standard in the Championship when we were in it. But that was two seasons ago and, yes, I belive the game has moved on miles just in two seasons.

Bottom line - I've not said all that in the piece but I've said that and more on the thread.



Dyche is way behind the times. The team that beat us to most long balls and fewest shots? Burnley. I don't think the majority of our fans would want him in charge here.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_long_balls

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_scoring_att

But that’s the same Sean Dyche that many on here lauded as some super manager no more than a season ago as he led Burnley to a European place! Strange how someone can be so good and so bad so quickly!

 

[Guinness Boy]

But that’s the same Sean Dyche that many on here lauded as some super manager no more than a season ago as he led Burnley to a European place! Strange how someone can be so good and so bad so quickly!

They came "best of the rest" in one season. I think Tony Bloom looked at the last half of this season, wondered if we could do that too and rolled the dice.

They also went down under Dyche and no one was singing his praises when Kayal was being stamped on. That was the season before we got promoted. Dyche had learned from his relegation season and was much better prepared second time round, whereas our second season, with more expensive players, yielded slightly worse results and a worse overall fan experience (Man U and Palace games aside).

Now - are those more expensive players any good? I have my doubts about Ali J and Locadia but Bissouma strengthend midfield and Bernardo strengthened our full back options. Button was a great back up keeper. We will only really see once GP uses them (or gets rid).

 

[Machiavelli]

But that’s the same Sean Dyche that many on here lauded as some super manager no more than a season ago as he led Burnley to a European place! Strange how someone can be so good and so bad so quickly!

All you're saying is that those that contribute to NSC have multiple views. Which is correct. Dyche is what he is, a canny manager that has proved extremely successful in his first decade or so as a manager. Like Hughton, he pays close attention to details, and knows all about defensive solidity. The point of this thread, however, is that football evolves. More pertinently, this evolution exposes managers and their ideas and approaches to the game. I'm not entirely convinced Burnley's future in the PL is secured this season or, if not, next. Ditto B&HA. The bookies reflect that view too.
That said, for various reasons, I think B&HA have more future potential than Burnley. Securing that is very closely related to who the manager is, and how they perform. We shall see on that front.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I don't think he's as modern or forward thinking as Smug Eddie, Nuno and Hassenhutti. Gracia has worked miracles at Watford.

Smug Eddie bought 5 players this season for approx. £80million - he also got Clyne in from Liverpool on loan - with a total salary of over £42million - they also paid Dafoe something like £65K a week while he was at Rangers.

Nuno brought in a dozen players that cost more than £100million - as well as 3 players on loan who had significant playing time - with a total salary of over £40million - including two players earning £100K a week. The reason Wolves total salary was so low was because many of the players were still on Championship contracts - Matt Doherty was earning £10K a week, Conor Cody £15K, Ryan Bennett £20K - all of whom played more than 35 games in the PL last season.

Hasenhutti - Southampton brought in 4 players for over £60million - as well as Danny Ings from Liverpool - with a total salary of over £70million (including 14 players who are paid more than the highest paid player at Brighton). They finished 3 points ahead of Brighton.

Garcia did the best in terms of transfers - 5 players for £32million - with a total team salary of £52million.

With the exception of Wolves - all the other teams have established PL squads

Hughton had the following in comparison - spent approx £65million on 9 players - and had a total team salary of £38million

All of the teams you mention have better squads - paid more money per player on transfers and pay higher salaries than Brighton. If you wanted Hughton to 'work miracles' then more money was needed.

 

[perseus]

I read a comment in the press last pre season about Warnock, describing him as an 'analogue manager in a digital age'.

I think our Chris, although not at that stage, was heading towards it possibly.

How will the younger manager's do? Potter 44, Rodgers 46, Solskjær 46, Eddie Howe 41, Silva 41, Santo 45

 

[Guinness Boy]

Smug Eddie bought 5 players this season for approx. £80million - he also got Clyne in from Liverpool on loan - with a total salary of over £42million - they also paid Dafoe something like £65K a week while he was at Rangers.

Nuno brought in a dozen players that cost more than £100million - as well as 3 players on loan who had significant playing time - with a total salary of over £40million - including two players earning £100K a week. The reason Wolves total salary was so low was because many of the players were still on Championship contracts - Matt Doherty was earning £10K a week, Conor Cody £15K, Ryan Bennett £20K - all of whom played more than 35 games in the PL last season.

Hasenhutti - Southampton brought in 4 players for over £60million - as well as Danny Ings from Liverpool - with a total salary of over £70million (including 14 players who are paid more than the highest paid player at Brighton). They finished 3 points ahead of Brighton.

Garcia did the best in terms of transfers - 5 players for £32million - with a total team salary of £52million.

With the exception of Wolves - all the other teams have established PL squads

Hughton had the following in comparison - spent approx £65million on 9 players - and had a total team salary of £38million

All of the teams you mention have better squads - paid more money per player on transfers and pay higher salaries than Brighton. If you wanted Hughton to 'work miracles' then more money was needed.

You seem very sure of your figures. Care to tell us where you get them from?

Nevertheless you’ve picked up on one aspect and ignored another. Howe was already looking at the PL when they went up from L1 and started his first PL season with mainly Championship players. When Saints and Watford needed new coaches for their projects they weren’t hammering down our door for Hughton.

But the direction we’ve gone in is the other modern form of coach. Potter had no money in Sweden or Swansea. Southgate took a miserable England and made them one of the top four teams in the world in FOUR years obviously without money. That is in the article.

Bloom’s whole premise is that you don’t need to break the bank, but then a Brighton fan would know that.


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