[Football] Arsenal’s Ben White

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That's not what I mean. What I mean is that after three or four years of building a squad to compete, we find ourselves picking uncapped players on the eve of a major tournament, and with 18 of the 33 having fewer than 10 caps. Shouldn't the team be a bit further along by now?

OK I see what you mean.

We are both old fellahs I think (well, I am). You recall the days when you needed to be at least 26 to get a full cap? Rodney Marsh was 29 I think when he made his debut. The 'squad' (even the team) barely changed year after year. Geoff Hurst's goal tallies plummeted (albeit still on a par with the current boy at Everton) in 69-70 but he went to the 70 world cup and had another 2 years as an England player. Hurst and Lee were the main strikers in the 70 squad with over 50 caps between them. Neither were in the top 5 scorers in Div 1 that season. Joe Royal and Pop Robson were second and fourth top scorerers and weren't even in the England squad. Jeff Astle was the div 1 leading scorerer and had a career total of how many England caps? 5. No, I hated all that.

The current squad will be 'stable' only if the pipeline of young talent dries up.

If you would rather we have an experienced squad I presume you also accept that we would have had to have been picking the same players, year after year, but we don't have the players who would justify repeated selection year after year. So you can blame the inability of players like Lindgard, Dier, Wellbeck to retain their form and fitness, but you can't blame Southgate. It is what it is.

Meanwhile I love seeing the youngsters getting a chance. Remember Owen in 98?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree with this. Why are we looking to build for the future when we have a very winnable tournament. Didn’t we try to build for this tournament too? Maybe by the World Cup we can build for the next euros. By always picking players for the future you remove the accountability of the here and now. Surely you just pick your best fit players now. Building for the future ignores that players lose form, get injured etc. I simply can’t compute not picking your best players because others might be better in a few years.

So I ask again - who is not in the squad who should be in the squad?

If this is a 'thing' (rather than 'oh Bellingham, he's too inexperienced'), then, in fact, which five players should be left out of the squad and which five players should have been included?

 

[Berty23]

So I ask again - who is not in the squad who should be in the squad?

If this is a 'thing' (rather than 'oh Bellingham, he's too inexperienced'), then, in fact, which five players should be left out of the squad and which five players should have been included?

It was specifically about dunk. Nothing else. Some would argue bamford. I am genuinely interested to find out what Southgate sees in dunk that others don’t. If Maguire is injured then the squad has a massive dunk sized hole.

At which point will they say “this is the one to judge us on”

It is similar to what happens in cricket where we seem to always be building for the next ashes rather than trying to win the here and now.

I don’t have a problem with a young squad as long as we don’t pretend we have excuses. Foden, mount, Bellingham have all starred in champions league so why don’t we expect them to win the euros.

 

[Hugo Rune]

England’s Ben White

The comment on 5Live about Lamptey was superb. Probably from Jason about 15mins ago.

They were talking about the right backs in the squad. After saying that Wan-Bissaka did not deserve a squad place, he then went on to say that it’s a shame about Lamptey not being available because he is probably better than all the rest (TAA, Walker, Trippier & James). I agree.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I think it’s age as well now. Sadly Dunky is no longer a young player.

Someone like Ben White, if goes well could be playing in many more international tournaments. Not saying it’s right or I agree.. but I’m starting to think that must be a consideration.

TS interviewed GS and he said Whites younger

Seems like more of the experience of meeting up rather than going so maybe Dunk is actually being respected with that in mind


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[vagabond]

Pleased for White
Gutted for Dunk
Disgusted by Southgate

Poetry.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It was specifically about dunk. Nothing else. Some would argue bamford. I am genuinely interested to find out what Southgate sees in dunk that others don’t. If Maguire is injured then the squad has a massive dunk sized hole.

At which point will they say “this is the one to judge us on”

It is similar to what happens in cricket where we seem to always be building for the next ashes rather than trying to win the here and now.

I don’t have a problem with a young squad as long as we don’t pretend we have excuses. Foden, mount, Bellingham have all starred in champions league so why don’t we expect them to win the euros.

Sorry to be pedantic but you haven't made sense there. You continue to make general criticism about the content of the squad (which means numerous selections) and yet you refer only to Dunk (and Dunk is not an experienced international who has been dropped for a wet behind the ears teenager).

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Sorry, off topic, but England related - see Grealish is in the squad.. I will be haunted as to whether to appreciate him playing for England and the excitement he can bring, vs, the frustration I have for his diving/antics. I see the Chelsea skipper (cant spell his name) who was sent off for "fouling" him on Sunday has had that over-turned.. no mention of subsequent action for Grealish though, Obvs!

Glad you pointed this out about Grealish. He is a complete and utter cheat. An embarrassment to football. Took a slight, clearly accidental touch to the head and went down clutching his face in simulated agony. What happened to the simulation reviews that were supposed to occur post match and punish players who conned the refs during the game?

 

[um bongo molongo]

The way Southgate was talking it sounds like Ben and Godfrey are very much making up the numbers, and it makes sense I guess to ensure the ‘back ups’ are young players. But if he actually wants them to play and win matches now, Lewis should be in there.

 

[Gwylan]

So I ask again - who is not in the squad who should be in the squad?

Maddison

 

[herecomesaregular]

The way Southgate was talking it sounds like Ben and Godfrey are very much making up the numbers, and it makes sense I guess to ensure the ‘back ups’ are young players. But if he actually wants them to play and win matches now, Lewis should be in there.

What a waste of time, if that's the case.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

OK I see what you mean.

We are both old fellahs I think (well, I am). You recall the days when you needed to be at least 26 to get a full cap? Rodney Marsh was 29 I think when he made his debut. The 'squad' (even the team) barely changed year after year. Geoff Hurst's goal tallies plummeted (albeit still on a par with the current boy at Everton) in 69-70 but he went to the 70 world cup and had another 2 years as an England player. Hurst and Lee were the main strikers in the 70 squad with over 50 caps between them. Neither were in the top 5 scorers in Div 1 that season. Joe Royal and Pop Robson were second and fourth top scorerers and weren't even in the England squad. Jeff Astle was the div 1 leading scorerer and had a career total of how many England caps? 5. No, I hated all that.

The current squad will be 'stable' only if the pipeline of young talent dries up.

If you would rather we have an experienced squad I presume you also accept that we would have had to have been picking the same players, year after year, but we don't have the players who would justify repeated selection year after year. So you can blame the inability of players like Lindgard, Dier, Wellbeck to retain their form and fitness, but you can't blame Southgate. It is what it is.

Meanwhile I love seeing the youngsters getting a chance. Remember Owen in 98?

Well, my years aren't as advanced as yours, the first world cup I followed was Mexico '86, but I get the gist, and I guess it was much the same from the Venables era through to Eriksson, a core that didn't change much over time.

Yes, its exciting to have the kids come through, but it should be when they absolutely cannot be ignored - well remember Owen and Beckham in '98 but they demanded to be picked, just like Gascoigne back in 1990 or Rooney in 2004. But overall, to win a World Cup or Euros you have to have a reliable, consistent, experienced squad, you cannot keep chopping and changing. The great French, German, Spanish sides of the last two and a bit decades were incredibly experienced units, with every player in every position having been there for years, they knew their gameplan and how to play together as a team. I've no doubt there were young stars in each of those countries clamouring for a spot but it was the experienced side that did the job.

We've been handing out caps like confetti for a long time now, which I think devalues the shirt. And my main point is - what have we achieved in the last three years since the World Cup. The core of the squad that starred in the WC are still there, and arguably at the peak of their career. Pickford, Maguire, Stones, Walker, Trippier, Henderson, Sterling, Kane, Rashford all starred in 2018, most of them broke through to the England team then and are all first-choice now. Thats a decent core, but what have we achieved in the past three years? Who has come through to join them or replace them as a first choice star? Rice, Winks, Mount, Sancho, TAA, Chilwell, Grealish, Phillips, Calvert-Lewin, Mings, Foden, James have all had a lot of game time in the past season and a bit, but I'm struggling to see any pattern with the team and partnerships. All a bit scattergun to me, and we're still seeing players entering the fray, like Ward-Prowse, Maitland-Niles, Coady, Saka, Bellingham, Greenwood, Watkins. Yes, don't pick the same players for ever, but give people a chance to grow into the team!

38 players have appeared for England since September 2020. Thirty-eight!

Maybe its simply the case the talent wasn't there at the time, and certainly Alli, Loftus-Cheek, Lingard, Welbeck, Clyne, Rose, Delph, Barkley and Wilshere faded away quickly and disappointingly, but if three years of developing a squad has resulted in little change to a core eight or nine players beyond a huge bunch of players competing for a few spots, with a lot of uncertainty over who plays and where, it feels like a missed opportunity. But hey, maybe those eight or nine are in fact the experienced team who wins the thing. Maybe we add TAA /Rice and Grealish/Foden/Mount to that core and blow everyone away. Perhaps I'm focusing on the wrong place

 

[Wozza]

Maddison

Hasn't been the same since his injury. Not sure he's played 90min since February.

 

[Bry Nylon]

The way Southgate was talking it sounds like Ben and Godfrey are very much making up the numbers

What a waste of time, if that's the case.

Don't knock it. Probably get a t-shirt and a branded drinks bottle.

 

[Sarisbury Seagull]

We can debate defensive squad places all day, ultimately England’s progress in this tournament will come down to whether Southgate can find a system to get the most out Mount, Sancho and particularly Foden. They are the game changers for us.

Ultimately I don’t think we will be quite good enough to beat Portugal who’s side/squad looks frightening. The only thing that might stop them IMO is fatigue after the season most of their players have had. A nearly full Wembley could also make a big difference to us.

2 (1.5 actually) and 4 years time looks potentially really exciting for our squad though.

 

[Hugo Rune]

England’s progress in this tournament will come down to whether Southgate can find a system to get the most out Mount, Sancho and particularly Foden. They are the game changers for us.

I think this is the strongest squad we’ve ever taken to the Euros, certainly in an attacking sense. I’d label the game changers as Kane, Grealish & Sterling with honourable mentions for Rashford & Greenwood. The three you mention (or the players I have except Kane) might not even start.

 

[Sarisbury Seagull]

England’s Ben White

I think this is the strongest squad we’ve ever taken to the Euros, certainly in an attacking sense. I’d label the game changers as Kane, Grealish & Sterling with honourable mentions for Rashford & Greenwood. The three you mention (or the players I have except Kane) might not even start.

And if they don’t start then that’s a damning indictment of Southgate, they’re our three best and most in form attacking players. They are the ones most likely to create something.

As much as I like Sterling and Grealish, Sterling has been woefully off form for months and Grealish is not fit.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Maddison

I rest my case. One man. And he's not even first choice at Leicester right now as he comes back from wherever he went.

And also he isn't an experieced international with 20 plus caps who has been cast aside in the rush to select hoards of teenagers.

Ordinarily I quite like him but just because he isn't in the squad isn't reason to burn Southgit (although there may be other reasons).

Any more?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Well, my years aren't as advanced as yours, the first world cup I followed was Mexico '86, but I get the gist, and I guess it was much the same from the Venables era through to Eriksson, a core that didn't change much over time.

Yes, its exciting to have the kids come through, but it should be when they absolutely cannot be ignored - well remember Owen and Beckham in '98 but they demanded to be picked, just like Gascoigne back in 1990 or Rooney in 2004. But overall, to win a World Cup or Euros you have to have a reliable, consistent, experienced squad, you cannot keep chopping and changing. The great French, German, Spanish sides of the last two and a bit decades were incredibly experienced units, with every player in every position having been there for years, they knew their gameplan and how to play together as a team. I've no doubt there were young stars in each of those countries clamouring for a spot but it was the experienced side that did the job.

We've been handing out caps like confetti for a long time now, which I think devalues the shirt. And my main point is - what have we achieved in the last three years since the World Cup. The core of the squad that starred in the WC are still there, and arguably at the peak of their career. Pickford, Maguire, Stones, Walker, Trippier, Henderson, Sterling, Kane, Rashford all starred in 2018, most of them broke through to the England team then and are all first-choice now. Thats a decent core, but what have we achieved in the past three years? Who has come through to join them or replace them as a first choice star? Rice, Winks, Mount, Sancho, TAA, Chilwell, Grealish, Phillips, Calvert-Lewin, Mings, Foden, James have all had a lot of game time in the past season and a bit, but I'm struggling to see any pattern with the team and partnerships. All a bit scattergun to me, and we're still seeing players entering the fray, like Ward-Prowse, Maitland-Niles, Coady, Saka, Bellingham, Greenwood, Watkins. Yes, don't pick the same players for ever, but give people a chance to grow into the team!

38 players have appeared for England since September 2020. Thirty-eight!

Maybe its simply the case the talent wasn't there at the time, and certainly Alli, Loftus-Cheek, Lingard, Welbeck, Clyne, Rose, Delph, Barkley and Wilshere faded away quickly and disappointingly, but if three years of developing a squad has resulted in little change to a core eight or nine players beyond a huge bunch of players competing for a few spots, with a lot of uncertainty over who plays and where, it feels like a missed opportunity. But hey, maybe those eight or nine are in fact the experienced team who wins the thing. Maybe we add TAA /Rice and Grealish/Foden/Mount to that core and blow everyone away. Perhaps I'm focusing on the wrong place

So, yes, there is a core of experienced players, and Southgate has had to work with what's available as far as the rest of the squad is concerned. He has not been afraid to pick players in form (apart from Dunk, allegedly). Not sure what more he could do, really

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to be able to say England haven't won anything because he's done everything wrong (and England really are the best, like we all imagine is the case, since we invented the game, etc.). But when it comes to squad selection I can't find a pattern of cockwombelry there. Picking the right team on the day and communicating an effective game plan, that may be another story. That or we aren't as good as we think we are (despite inventing the game, etc.).

 

[amexer]

just strange we are only country to name 33 players and can only presume with 3 sides due to play in finals he is concerned about injuries. Have no doubt if there was a big game tomorrow and short of CBs he would choose Dunk over White.