Are you into the Paranormal?

[Seagull27]

Belief goes beyond just a visual concept.

Tell me about love, do you believe in the concept of love?

Love is just a series of chemical reactions that happen due to the way we've evolved. The only meaning it has is the way we interpret it.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Love is just a series of chemical reactions that happen due to the way we've evolved. The only meaning it has is the way we interpret it.

So you don't believe in love then. It's not a real thing to you.

 

[Seagull27]

So you don't believe in love then. It's not a real thing to you.

Of course it's a real thing, but just like every single emotion we experience, it only happens because of the way that our bodies react to certain chemicals and hormones. It only feels real because of the way our brains interpret it. Just like feelings of happiness, anger, misery, hatred. This can be proven - you can change people's emotions by changing the balance of certain chemicals in their body.

It's a very real feeling to all of us, and it's both a beautiful and horrendous feeling at times, but that doesn't mean it's anything more than our laws of physics at work.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Of course it's a real thing, but just like every single emotion we experience, it only happens because of the way that our bodies react to certain chemicals and hormones. It only feels real because of the way our brains interpret it. Just like feelings of happiness, anger, misery, hatred. This can be proven - you can change people's emotions by changing the balance of certain chemicals in their body.

It's a very real feeling to all of us, and it's both a beautiful and horrendous feeling at times, but that doesn't mean it's anything more than our laws of physics at work.

So what you're saying is that if you believe in something it's real.

After all, you can't actually show me "love", you can't physically take a photo of it, touch it, smell it, physically touch it. It's all based on a "feeling" that it exists.

So if love is indeed real then based on a "feeling" so to can a great many other things people experience or see that others claim isn't real.

 

[Wilko]

So what you're saying is that if you believe in something it's real.

After all, you can't actually show me "love", you can't physically take a photo of it, touch it, smell it, physically touch it. It's all based on a "feeling" that it exists.

So if love is indeed real then based on a "feeling" so to can a great many other things people experience or see that others claim isn't real.

FEELING love is very different to SEEING a ghost.

 

[Seagull27]

So what you're saying is that if you believe in something it's real.

After all, you can't actually show me "love", you can't physically take a photo of it, touch it, smell it, physically touch it. It's all based on a "feeling" that it exists.

So if love is indeed real then based on a "feeling" so to can a great many other things people experience or see that others claim isn't real.

You're hit the nail on the head: things like love (and paranormal experiences) feel incredibly real to the person who experiences it. But that doesn't make it a real physical thing.

Paranormal experiences, just like love, are when something has caused a person's body to act in a certain way that cause them to feel or experience something. Neither are scientifically measurable as a thing, as neither actually exists. But, you can measure scientifically what caused people's bodies to react to create that feeling.

With love, it's a response to chemicals such as serotonin and oxytocin. With paranormal experiences, they are responses to all sorts of possible stimuli. Both feel very real to the person who experienced them, but neither are actual physical objects that exist.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

FEELING love is very different to SEEING a ghost.

So you're saying because you can feel it that makes it real?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You're hit the nail on the head: things like love (and paranormal experiences) feel incredibly real to the person who experiences it. But that doesn't make it a real physical thing.

Paranormal experiences, just like love, are when something has caused a person's body to act in a certain way that cause them to feel or experience something. Neither are scientifically measurable as a thing, as neither actually exists. But, you can measure scientifically what caused people's bodies to react to create that feeling.

With love, it's a response to chemicals such as serotonin and oxytocin. With paranormal experiences, they are responses to all sorts of possible stimuli. Both feel very real to the person who experienced them, but neither are actual physical objects that exist.

So then for the paranormal to exist it doesn't actualy have to be a solid physical entity. It can be a great many things and be experienced in a great many ways.

Such as my grandparents and neighbours experience. Three independent witnesses to something that was visible to three different peoples visual recognition for 5 seconds and then it vanished before their eyes.

One person you can try explain away their experience with various reasonings, three however does not allow for the same reasoning of discreditation of what they saw.

 

[Seagull27]

No, I mean that it might FEEL very real to someone, but that doesn't make it real.

I'm not doubting that your grandparents and neihhbours saw something, but that doesn't mean that it was something paranormal. They just interpreted it that way.

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[Tyrone Biggums]

No, I mean that it might FEEL very real to someone, but that doesn't make it real.

I'm not doubting that your grandparents and neihhbours saw something, but that doesn't mean that it was something paranormal. They just interpreted it that way.

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How else do you interpret that apparition of a person standing there and then disappearing without a trace?

For three different sets of eyes at different positions and angles to each other seeing the same thing whatever they are seeing has to be there.

 

[Wilko]

So you're saying because you can feel it that makes it real?

No, the opposite. I am saying you can feel things that are not reality:

A schizophrenic hears voices, it does not mean they are there
A person can feel there is a presence in the room, it does not mean they are there
A person in a desert can hallucinate a fountain of water, it does not mean it is there
A person on pills can feel love for the stranger sat next to him, it does not mean it is real
A person can see a vision of god, it does not mean it is there

What I am saying is that 100% a person can think they have seen something like a ghost or god but it does not mean it exists. It exists in their mind or eye but not in reality.

 

[Wilko]

You're hit the nail on the head: things like love (and paranormal experiences) feel incredibly real to the person who experiences it. But that doesn't make it a real physical thing.

Paranormal experiences, just like love, are when something has caused a person's body to act in a certain way that cause them to feel or experience something. Neither are scientifically measurable as a thing, as neither actually exists. But, you can measure scientifically what caused people's bodies to react to create that feeling.

With love, it's a response to chemicals such as serotonin and oxytocin. With paranormal experiences, they are responses to all sorts of possible stimuli. Both feel very real to the person who experienced them, but neither are actual physical objects that exist.

This. I cannot explain it any better.

 

[Seagull27]

Double post

 

[Seagull27]

How else do you interpret that apparition of a person standing there and then disappearing without a trace?

For three different sets of eyes at different positions and angles to each other seeing the same thing whatever they are seeing has to be there.

I obviously can't; if there was a clear explanation, your grandparents would have been able to themselves. But just because you can't explain something doesn't mean there's something paranormal.

Let's look at it in another way: how do you explain that a cluster of matter shaped as a person suddenly disappeared? Matter doesn't do that, it violates the laws of thermodynamics.

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[Tyrone Biggums]

I obviously can't; if there was a clear explanation, your grandparents would have been able to themselves. But just because you can't explain something doesn't mean there's something paranormal.

Let's look at it in another way: how do you explain that a cluster of matter shaped as a person suddenly disappeared? Matter doesn't do that, it violates the laws of thermodynamics.

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I explain it by saying science understands a very small amount of what goes on in the cosmos.

The law of thermodynamics is a human construct. It does not mean it is the absolute truth outside our limited understandings of how everything works.

If they saw what they saw then it can and does exist. All that means is science has yet to discover why it can happen and exist. People who have experienced such things might or might not need science to validate their experiences. Doesn't mean it wasn't real though.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

No, the opposite. I am saying you can feel things that are not reality:

A schizophrenic hears voices, it does not mean they are there
A person can feel there is a presence in the room, it does not mean they are there
A person in a desert can hallucinate a fountain of water, it does not mean it is there
A person on pills can feel love for the stranger sat next to him, it does not mean it is real
A person can see a vision of god, it does not mean it is there

What I am saying is that 100% a person can think they have seen something like a ghost or god but it does not mean it exists. It exists in their mind or eye but not in reality.

You can't state that as an absolute. What do you know of the absolute truth of reality?

 

[Seagull27]

I explain it by saying science understands a very small amount of what goes on in the cosmos.

The law of thermodynamics is a human construct. It does not mean it is the absolute truth outside our limited understandings of how everything works.

If they saw what they saw then it can and does exist. All that means is science has yet to discover why it can happen and exist. People who have experienced such things might or might not need science to validate their experiences. Doesn't mean it wasn't real though.

I'll accept that - we really don't know everything there is to know about science and there is a possibility that what your grandparents saw is something that our current understanding of science can't explain.

But it seems pretty unlikely to me that something so large and clearly visible involves scientific principles that are completely unknown to us, and completely unmeasurable. If ghosts were real, we would have surely been able to measure something about their existence beyond just seeing and hearing them. A change in temperature or air pressure, or perhaps diffraction of light through the object.

Or perhaps it's possible that they are actually psychological phenomena that result from a misinterpretation of something that was real, like a reflection or trick of the light. And there are a number of psychological effects that can explain how multiple people believe they saw something that they didn't - just look at eye witness testimony, for example.

 

[Grombleton]

A schizophrenic hears voices, it does not mean they are there

But to them it is. As you can't take their place it can't categorically be said that it's not there.

It's like us suggesting to you that the sky is not actually blue - you may see it as blue so you believe that it is. Other people may see it different so who is to say who is correct?

On the subject of a paranormal, i've had a number of experiences that make me feel there is something. I understand there are possible explanations but i've yet to hear any convincing enough.

 

[Grombleton]

I'll accept that - we really don't know everything there is to know about science and there is a possibility that what your grandparents saw is something that our current understanding of science can't explain.

But it seems pretty unlikely to me that something so large and clearly visible involves scientific principles that are completely unknown to us, and completely unmeasurable. If ghosts were real, we would have surely been able to measure something about their existence beyond just seeing and hearing them. A change in temperature or air pressure, or perhaps diffraction of light through the object.

Or perhaps it's possible that they are actually psychological phenomena that result from a misinterpretation of something that was real, like a reflection or trick of the light. And there are a number of psychological effects that can explain how multiple people believe they saw something that they didn't - just look at eye witness testimony, for example.

I'm sure its pretty commonly known that changes in air temperature and air pressure are known physical effects when in situations where there is also a paranormal phenomena taking place.

 

[Wilko]

You can't state that as an absolute. What do you know of the absolute truth of reality?

No one knows the absolute truth of reality. Let me go back to my original point I was trying to make. Why would 3 people telling you they had seen a ghost hold any validity of proof in ghosts whatsover?

There are thousands of people around the world who say they have been spoken to by god, this holds absolutely no weight of evidence whatsoever in my mind.