[Albion] Are YOU falling out of love with Roberto De Zerbi?

[warmleyseagull]

I mean if we can't revere the manager who took us to our highest ever position, and qualified us for Europe for the first time ever (something 90% of football fans will never see with their club), as a demi god, who are we meant to revere as a Demi God?

No-one. That's why I checked the 3rd box. This is football; it aint a religion. Grant you, reverence would come pretty close if I were a Man C fan, or Man U under Ferguson, but they are/were a different League. We don't know whether GP would have got us 6th, but I think he would judging from his results from end previous season and beginning last. Those who say he wouldn't just don't want to believe that he might have done (PS I don't want GP back).

It puzzles me why folk cant see that there is so much more to success or failure than the coach. We clutch onto RDZ, yet knowing he has insufficient confidence in TB to sign another deal, and/or is just the usual mercenary seeking a better opportunity.

 

[warmleyseagull]

Roma also took that game way more seriously than I expected. It felt huge being there, like it was their biggest game of the season.

I think we were overawed by it and the game was lost on individual errors (Lamptey's inability to play the offside trap for the first, Dunk's brainfade for the second, Welbeck's appalling finishing to get us back into it). By half-time the position was impossible. I'm not going to pretend that RDZ got it perfectly right, but I think the stats, and De Rossi's comments post match, show that 4-0 wasn't a fair reflection of the game. To blame that loss entirely on him and how he set the team up is a pretty targeted view of what actually happened. Roma created better chances and were far more clinical than us. I don't think it would've gone any better if we'd stuck 10 behind the ball if we're being honest, I'm much happier seeing us lose giving it a go.

And I think more importantly, we're not even going to Rome if it wasn't for that attacking ambition that he's bought to the club. Whatever you felt about Potter, we simply didn't score enough goals under him to reach European places.

Scored 26 in his last 14 PL games. It all changed once MC started.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

In the summer window Roberto hand picked two of the players you say gutted the squad. The cheap dross and the expensive Barca loan. Maybe even Igor as Brazilian Serie A player something Roberto likes. Our squad is far better than our 29 points from last 26 games. When Roberto did his usual moaning about how bad our players are before the Liverpool game he had a bench of 34 cap Lallana two Argentine internationals, Ansu Fati who´d just played 50 games for Barca the season before, prime aged defender with boat loads of Serie A experience a 19 year old forward prospect who scored a bunch of goals last season Webster with 100 plus PL appearances.
In 0-0 against Brentford we started our £35m striker signing up front with £8m Adingra on one side £5-£10m Bonanotte on the other £10m Enciso coming on Chris never had anything like it arguably. What Chris had was efficency we didnt have that under Potter and he faced criticism for not getting goals out of Maupay Connolly the Iranian and others criticism I agreed with yet I´m now supposed to kneel in front of this guy pretending Welbeck Fati Joao Pedro Bonanotte Evan Ferguson are too bad to score a goal or two for us. And we had Mitoma for half the season easy to forget given he looked like my grandpa for months of over playing him,
TLDR he picked parts of the alleged dross squad himself and if you compare it to first 3 albion Pl seasons the team is much better results the same 29 points from 26 games aka relegation battle
Hope this essay was readable not friends with words but gave some effort

Again, there is no proof RDZ hand picked Fati and Dahoud. It's just speculation made by people who dislike him and can't criticise the club for anything, and even if he did, they are cheap signings. It's therefore likely they were the best options the club would pay for. He also didn't treat Dahoud like someone he was desperate to sign. If he had list of players he wanted and the club picked the ones at the bottom, is that his fault?

I can't be bothered to go through the rest becuase it's obvious you have some sort of agenda against Roberto. Comparisions with Chris Hughton . I will say one thing though. Our midfield options this season are genuinely worse than under him in the first couple of season. A younger Groß, Proper, Stephens and Bissouma is better than Old Groß, Gilmour, Baleba and Moder.

 

[Beanstalk]

Scored 26 in his last 14 PL games. It all changed once MC started.

I mean even if we're comparing best runs that's still 1.85 gpg. In a 14 match run last season from the World Cup break to the 2-1 loss at Spurs we scored 31 goals at 2.2gpg. We scored 27 in our less flattering run of 14 games.

Ultimately though, it's about overall tenure, a run of 14 games does not qualify you for Europe, and throughout his time at Brighton RDZ has had a 1.9 gpg ratio (including our current dry spell), where Potter's stuck at 1.2 gpg.

Even at Potter's best run in front of goal, his team failed to score more goals on average than RDZ has in his entire time at the Albion.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Roma also took that game way more seriously than I expected. It felt huge being there, like it was their biggest game of the season.

I think we were overawed by it and the game was lost on individual errors (Lamptey's inability to play the offside trap for the first, Dunk's brainfade for the second, Welbeck's appalling finishing to get us back into it). By half-time the position was impossible. I'm not going to pretend that RDZ got it perfectly right, but I think the stats, and De Rossi's comments post match, show that 4-0 wasn't a fair reflection of the game. To blame that loss entirely on him and how he set the team up is a pretty targeted view of what actually happened. Roma created better chances and were far more clinical than us. I don't think it would've gone any better if we'd stuck 10 behind the ball if we're being honest, I'm much happier seeing us lose giving it a go.

And I think more importantly, we're not even going to Rome if it wasn't for that attacking ambition that he's bought to the club. Whatever you felt about Potter, we simply didn't score enough goals under him to reach European places.

I'm NOT 'blaming the loss entirely on him' at all. No loss of a football match is ever entirely one person's fault.

I'm blaming the MAGNITUDE of the loss on him.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

I completely disagree that a narrative has been "spun from nothing". I think what your post ignores is that RDZ has actively contributed (created?) much of the speculation in the first place by his comments in multiple press conferences over a significant period of time.

1) He made numerous barbed comments about the club and their lack of recruitment activity

2) Only 17 days ago (in the pre-match Liverpool press conference) he was specifically asked "...can you guarantee you will be here next season?" and his reply was "..first of all I want to speak with my club...I have not decided yet what is my future....anyway, I want to speak with Tony, with..my club...to understand their plan, then we take the decision together."

It is, quite simply, significant news that a Premier League manager is (by his own comments) unhappy about the level of support (in the transfer market) from his club, to the extent that he is undecided whether he wants to continue to honour his contract. OF COURSE the media is going to report that, and it will get discussed in various football podcasts, on talk shows etc. But it's almost entirely of RDZ's own making.

If I had omitted the phrase 'spun from nothing' or changed nothing to not much would you agree with the rest of my post?

As I see it RDZ is not saying anything different to what he's been saying his entire time with the club. I feel like I've been aware pretty much from day one on his belief that the club's and his own ideas need to align.

I don't feel like his messaging has changed much. From day one he has said he is lucky to be at the Albion, to be working with these players. He has stated that this group of players is the group that most reflects him. He has never linked himself with any of the moves that the press has linked him with. He has never actively encouraged any of the speculation by even saying something as simple as 'x are a big club it would be an honour for anyone to manage them'.

Has he dealt with the press well? Probably not, at least probably not from a fans perspective. Press conferences are terrible things. No good comes from them. I'd prefer it if he just said players a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x are unavailable but players y and z are back. It'll be a tough game, we'll do our best and said nothing more.

But what he does say isn't anymore controversial or derogatory or offensive than anything he's been saying in the previous 18months of press conferences. So what's the difference? Why now are people picking up on these things and dissecting and spinning every little thing he says or does?

The answer to that IMO is we've had a poor run of form/results leading to a very promising season fizzling out into a damp squib and the press turning to parts 2,3,4 and 6 of my post. Fans are disappointed/frustrated with how the seasons panned out and are looking for reasons/excuses/scape goats, the press come along and fan the flames et voila everyone starts losing their shit over RDZ.

The press have built him up, they've spuriously linked him to big clubs, asked him about these 'links' and his future and then printed the quotes that are the most salacious. They even then had the cheek to print headlines and stories about his falling stock after they report that actually he's not on the shortlist of the clubs they linked him to.

So I guess I agree, it's not spun out of nothing but it is spun out of very little. The press have built a fire and fanned the flames and some fans have been consumed by them.

 

[Exilegull]

Potter never had more than 6 games in a month as Brighton Manager.

RDZ had 7 in April. 7 in May 2023. 7 in Dec 2023.

I'm not sure any Premier League side has ever played 12 games in a month.

When did this happen multiple times?

We played 9 games in 5 weeks to complete the delayed 2019-20 season. We actually had a more congested end to last season under RDZ when we played 9 games in 33 days. But we never played 10-12 games in a month under Potter multiple times, or ever, Covid or not.

I have no memory of any of the fixture congestion that RDZ has dealt with was ever dealt with by Potter. I'd like someone to point to this period?

Admit 10-12 was exaggeration but we had long spells with lots of games. Between December 13 and February 13 2020/2021 we played 16 games 13 in the league and 3 in the cups whats that an average of 3 or 4 days of rest between games my counting is off today is slow today. 3-4 days of rest for 2 entire months

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

I’m still behind RDZ and would be disappointed if he’s not here next season, he is an excellent tactician and has clearly improved many players in his time here.

There have been games this season where he has got things wrong. He should’ve adapted from his usual style a bit earlier (notably away against Roma and Villa), but I think he had misguided faith that his back-up players could execute the system he loves, which is often reliant on outstanding technical quality and a degree of outstanding physical ability.

Since that Roma game, he’s been far more pragmatic and adapted from his preferred style. He has shown some flexibility in realising his back-up players can’t execute his ideal football. This has led to what a lot of people have described as Potter-ball, which is ultimately being pragmatic and building a team shape that doesn’t get exposed much but also struggles to create many clear cut chances.

I’m more concerned about our recruitment team which has also been decimated and hasn’t exactly provided the squad we hoped for this year (and I guess a finger can be pointed at RDZ here if we are to believe he had input on certain players).

When you look at those who joined in the summer, it’s not exactly glowing with players who can push for another European spot, especially considering the players who exited the club.

Pedro - undoubted success
Baleba - could be brilliant in a few years time, needs lots of work
Dahoud - never really looked up to the physicality of the PL
Milner - looking like a waste of time
Igor - steady player, not sure he gets into the defence of anyone else in the top 12
Fati - huge flop, clearly a multitude of issues and has not been the lynchpin signing the club/RDZ hoped

We went into the season with a squad that looked a decent size to deal with multiple competitions, but was actually pretty imbalanced, one or two short of genuine top impact players, and then plagued by injuries.

It’s an enormous summer in terms of recruitment if we intend to push for the top 10 or Europe again. RDZ knows this, and I’m sure wants guarantees that we will be signing a few players of a calibre who are capable of stepping straight into the side and making an impact. If he isn’t guaranteed that, I wouldn’t begrudge him leaving, but I also wouldn’t blame TB because ultimately it’s his money and his long term strategy.

 

[Beanstalk]

I'm NOT 'blaming the loss entirely on him' at all. No loss of a football match is ever entirely one person's fault.

I'm blaming the MAGNITUDUDE of the loss on him.

Well I blame it on individual mistakes and the team being overawed by the occasion. Something you could put on RDZ, but I'm willing to say that his ability to lift our ambitions to those heights and deal with big occasions was a huge factor in getting there so give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Tactically, we really weren't awful on the day. We just went out to win the game, and I'm glad we did. On another day, we deal with the pressure better and go in at half-time either 1-0 up or with the score at 0-0 and it's a different result. That's football.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Everything said by Roberto and Tony about the Fati, Dahoud signings point in the direction of Roberto choosing them. Igor maybe not but I read Roberto loves Brazilian players Igor has a lot of marks of RDZ player in his passing and control.

Interesting. So our transfer policy changed just for him, in your opinion, and in some specific situations, that just happen to fit your narrative?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I think with Solly's form before RDZ came in, it begged the question whether he was good enough to take us to the next level. A good player, but lets not pretend his finishing was any good. I think RDZ took him to a much better level. The only similar player I particularly credit with Potter improving was Dan Burn. I think the likes of Bissouma and Trossard always had quality (although I always thought (and still do) think Trossard is incredibly inconsistent) they would have always improved. Mac Allister was very inconsistent under Potter, until the very end.

I'm going to childishly reword this for my own amusement.
"Nobody improved under Potter, except for a couple of players. But nobody else. And these other players who probably would have got better anyway, but no one apart from that. This other player got better as well, but that's entirely incidental, I don't even consider it part of the conversation."

If I have a point, it's only that we tend to give as much blame/credit to a manager or coach as we want to, not as much as they actually deserve.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I’m still behind RDZ and would be disappointed if he’s not here next season, he is an excellent tactician and has clearly improved many players in his time here.

There have been games this season where he has got things wrong. He should’ve adapted from his usual style a bit earlier (notably away against Roma and Villa), but I think he had misguided faith that his back-up players could execute the system he loves, which is often reliant on outstanding technical quality and a degree of outstanding physical ability.

Since that Roma game, he’s been far more pragmatic and adapted from his preferred style. He has shown some flexibility in realising his back-up players can’t execute his ideal football. This has led to what a lot of people have described as Potter-ball, which is ultimately being pragmatic and building a team shape that doesn’t get exposed much but also struggles to create many clear cut chances.

I’m more concerned about our recruitment team which has also been decimated and hasn’t exactly provided the squad we hoped for this year (and I guess a finger can be pointed at RDZ here if we are to believe he had input on certain players).

When you look at those who joined in the summer, it’s not exactly glowing with players who can push for another European spot, especially considering the players who exited the club.

Pedro - undoubted success
Baleba - could be brilliant in a few years time, needs lots of work
Dahoud - never really looked up to the physicality of the PL
Milner - looking like a waste of time
Igor - steady player, not sure he gets into the defence of anyone else in the top 12
Fati - huge flop, clearly a multitude of issues and has not been the lynchpin signing the club/RDZ hoped

We went into the season with a squad that looked a decent size to deal with multiple competitions, but was actually pretty imbalanced, one or two short of genuine top impact players, and then plagued by injuries.

It’s an enormous summer in terms of recruitment if we intend to push for the top 10 or Europe again. RDZ knows this, and I’m sure wants guarantees that we will be signing a few players of a calibre who are capable of stepping straight into the side and making an impact. If he isn’t guaranteed that, I wouldn’t begrudge him leaving, but I also wouldn’t blame TB because ultimately it’s his money and his long term strategy.

Great post, agree with all of that.

 

[jackalbion]

No-one. That's why I checked the 3rd box. This is football; it aint a religion. Grant you, reverence would come pretty close if I were a Man C fan, or Man U under Ferguson, but they are/were a different League. We don't know whether GP would have got us 6th, but I think he would judging from his results from end previous season and beginning last. Those who say he wouldn't just don't want to believe that he might have done (PS I don't want GP back).

It puzzles me why folk cant see that there is so much more to success or failure than the coach. We clutch onto RDZ, yet knowing he has insufficient confidence in TB to sign another deal, and/or is just the usual mercenary seeking a better opportunity.

Football is about passion and a bit of fun, so maybe you can revere to them as Demi-gods and be a bit bitter. You are essentially saying that anyone who believes he wouldn't have achieved it, are just forcing themselves. I've put forward so pretty good cases (as has others) and some that he would have. It's a matter of opinion. There is a lot more to success and failure, but a coach is a huge part of it, and to instantly take a disliking to him because of some off the cuff comments in a press conference puzzles me as well.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I'm going to childishly reword this for my own amusement.
"Nobody improved under Potter, except for a couple of players. But nobody else. And these other players who probably would have got better anyway, but no one apart from that. This other player got better as well, but that's entirely incidental, I don't even consider it part of the conversation."

If I have a point, it's only that we tend to give as much blame/credit to a manager or coach as we want to, not as much as they actually deserve.

TBF @jackalbion specifically mentioned March who Potter regularly played out of position. RDZ stuck him at right wing / RF and just gave him the freedom to try and score and assist and off he went. It's the literal example of a player being improved by a change of head coach.

I do appreciate there are others across GPott and RDZ though.

 

[jackalbion]

I'm going to childishly reword this for my own amusement.
"Nobody improved under Potter, except for a couple of players. But nobody else. And these other players who probably would have got better anyway, but no one apart from that. This other player got better as well, but that's entirely incidental, I don't even consider it part of the conversation."

If I have a point, it's only that we tend to give as much blame/credit to a manager or coach as we want to, not as much as they actually deserve.

I don't think that is correct way of rewording it. Trossard and Bissouma were clearly very talented players with a lot of potential when signed. Burn and March were ageing English players, who at the time were limited. I think Potter did very well to push Burn beyond his perceived ceiling, the same for RDZ with Solly.

 

[jackalbion]

Admit 10-12 was exaggeration but we had long spells with lots of games. Between December 13 and February 13 2020/2021 we played 16 games 13 in the league and 3 in the cups whats that an average of 3 or 4 days of rest between games my counting is off today is slow today. 3-4 days of rest for 2 entire months

Which resulted in LDDDLDDLWDWWWDLL with one of those wins coming against Blackpool in the cup, but also against Liverpool in the league. This still indicates that he would never have had the consistency to get us europe in my opinion. To the point of that his approach lost us the game in Rome (as per @hans kraay fan club ) , I argue that we would have never got to the game in Rome under potter, as RDZ's approach of throwing on every attacker against Marseille at home, won us the game, something IMO Potter would have never have done.

 

[Crispy Ambulance]

I mean if we can't revere the manager who took us to our highest ever position, and qualified us for Europe for the first time ever (something 90% of football fans will never see with their club), as a demi god, who are we meant to revere as a Demi God?

Demi Moore?

 

[Beanstalk]

I don't think that is correct way of rewording it. Trossard and Bissouma were clearly very talented players with a lot of potential when signed. Burn and March were ageing English players, who at the time were limited. I think Potter did very well to push Burn beyond his perceived ceiling, the same for RDZ with Solly.

Yes, the fundamental difference between Trossard/Bissouma and Burn/March is about longevity plans tbh.

The club spent about £15m on Trossard and sold him for £27m. Bissouma was signed for around £15m and sold for £25m. The plan for those types of players were always going to be that they would eventually be sold for some kind of profit. They were signed because they showed potential, and they always had the promise of making lots of money for the club.

With Burn and March, the total outlay was £3.5m and I refuse to believe Burn was brought in to develop and sell at the profit he was sold at in the end. He was brought in under Hughton to replace Connor Goldson who had left the previous month to Rangers. He did develop enormously and it was a credit to Potter that he pushed Burn beyond his ceiling, so much so that we were able to make a profit on his sale - something I don't think any of us would've thought possible when he first joined. March will stay at the club probably for the rest of his career now, and that is down to RDZ finally unlocking his potential.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Which resulted in LDDDLDDLWDWWWDLL with one of those wins coming against Blackpool in the cup, but also against Liverpool in the league. This still indicates that he would never have had the consistency to get us europe in my opinion. To the point of that his approach lost us the game in Rome (as per @hans kraay fan club ) , I argue that we would have never got to the game in Rome under potter, as RDZ's approach of throwing on every attacker against Marseille at home, won us the game, something IMO Potter would have never have done.

Once again, I have not said once that his approach lost us that game. I think they beat us because their team was simply better than ours. I do think that his approach led to the magnitude of the defeat, and thus lost us the TIE (which we may well have anyway - had it been in the balance, they'd have surely picked a stronger side than they did, for the second leg).

As to 'getting there' - its pure conjecture. Under Potter we might never have made Europe, let alone won the group. Or maybe we would. Impossible to know. We had a VERY good side.

 

[jackalbion]

Once again, I have not said once that his approach lost us that game. I think they beat us because their team was simply better than ours. I do think that his approach led to the magnitude of the defeat, and thus lost us the TIE (which we may well have anyway - had it been in the balance, they'd have surely picked a stronger side than they did, for the second leg).

As to 'getting there' - its pure conjecture. Under Potter we might never have made Europe, let alone won the group. Or maybe we would. Impossible to know. We had a VERY good side.

Yes I meant the magnitude, but to the last point, thats the point of this conversation, we'll never know what we would have done under Potter in the Europa League. But based on the evidence I don't believe we would have, his approach was far more pragmatic.