Are The Beatles the greatest band of all time?

[HAILSHAM SEAGULL]

Any other older NSCers remember the 1968 concept offering from The Small Faces - Ogden's Nut Gone Flake which came in a rather cool oversized tobacco tin

And the Zombies Odyssey and Oracle did this actually precede Sgt Pepper? This album is a mostly forgotten gem imo, I think the lack of enthusiasm for it, at the time, resulted in the break up of the band?

ONGF is one of the most under-rated albums of all time, by one of the most under-rated groups of the 60's.
I frigging love the Small Faces

 

[HAILSHAM SEAGULL]

I thought Boy Bands were thrown together by record companies, given an image and then given songs to sing. I think you'll find the Beatles served their apprenticeships in Hamburg playing clubs having originally formed, under a different name in 1958. Their first hit was in 1963. I think you are talking rubbish and the first boy band was the Monkees.

I take it you were not around to appreciate the effect the Beatles had on music and the enormous amount of bands from Liverpool and Manchester who followed in their footsteps. Boy Band indeed

Name me a Boy Band who can play all the instruments and write ground breaking songs.

Name me a Boy Band who can play any instruments and write any ground breaking song?

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Name me a Boy Band who can play any instruments and write any ground breaking song?

Jackson 5

 

[HAILSHAM SEAGULL]

Jackson 5

I bought the Jackson 5's first five singles, cant remember them even shaking a tambourine, and I may be wrong, but I bet most of them were written by Motowns people, Holland, Dozier, S.Robinson etc

 

[Stato]

Their inovations are there to be heard . They came from a Rock'n'Roll /skiffle generation with a shared love of American rock n roll and Paul's affection towards Buddy Holly. From 3 albums of mainly standards with original compositions thrown in , it was clear they wanted more . Whether it be accidental feedback on I Feel Fine , which most other bands would have discarded .they kept it in .A British pop/rock band using sitars in 1965 . Unheard of. Sound effects over the music of Sgt Pepper , the use of segueways rather than gaps .Sgt Pepper again and the brilliant finale on Abbey Road . Paul asking George Martin about the instrument that orchestral feller used on the telly last night . Oh , that'll be a French Horn. Lets put that in then , but make not sound like a French Horn. Using strings to enhance their own music. Using other instruments and then elonggating the sound to create a new sound . If you listen to the demo of Strawberry Fields and then listen to the version we all know and love , the difference is stunning. The music is stretched a slowed down to make that final version. . The boys knew what sounds they wanted and George Martin knew a way to achieve it. And this all recorded over 16 tracks on a 4 track machine.

And all that in 8 years . If that is not innovation , I don't know what is !!!

Innovation means being the first to do something:

Distorted guitar sound: You Really Got Me by The Kinks - Three months before I Feel Fine
Sound effects and making instruments sound like other things - The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds the year before Sgt Pepper
Segueways - Face to Face, Kinks again the year before Sgt Pepper, although the record company removed them.
Sitars - Ray Davies didn't have one, so made the guitars sound like one using studio effects, like McCartney's French Horn - See My Friends six months before Norwegian Wood and two years before Sgt Pepper.

So that's none out of five. What else were they credited with that they didn't do?

 

[BadFish]

Okay so we have decided that the Beatles were not the most innovative band of their time (I was not alive then so will concede in this discussion).

So using the measure of innovation and breaking ground, given the information we have it certainly appears they would be top 5? top 10? Can we come to some kind of consensus here?

 

[BadFish]

Innovation means being the first to do something:

Distorted guitar sound: You Really Got Me by The Kinks - Three months before I Feel Fine
Sound effects and making instruments sound like other things - The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds the year before Sgt Pepper
Segueways - Face to Face, Kinks again the year before Sgt Pepper, although the record company removed them.
Sitars - Ray Davies didn't have one, so made the guitars sound like one using studio effects, like McCartney's French Horn - See My Friends six months before Norwegian Wood and two years before Sgt Pepper.

So that's none out of five. What else were they credited with that they didn't do?

So they were the first western band to use sitars on record? and not far behind on the other stuff. So maybe we can agree that they were one of the most innovative bands in a time of huge innovation?

http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/5-recording-innovations-by-beatles.html

Multi-miking drums. Until Emerick began to experiment, the drum kit was picked up by a maximum of two mics - one on kick drum and the other as an overhead above the snare. In order to get a bigger drum sound, Emerick introduced a mic on each drum as well as one underneath the snare.

Close-miking instruments. Once again, in order to get a different, fuller sound, Emerick violated the EMI standards of distance miking each instrument. Surprisingly, he almost got fired for this practice except for the great power of The Beatles. Emerick close-miked all sorts of instruments to the horror of the suited EMI execs, from drums to amps to brass to strings to Indian instruments. Of course, this is a practice that we take for granted today.

Padding on drums. A lot of the sound of the later Beatle records came from the fact that Ringo put light "tea towels" across the drums as well as a sweater inside the kick drum at the behest of Emerick to dampen the ring. While the towels never caught on, kick drums are routinely stuffed with all sorts of soft material today, and for a time during the late 70's and 80's, a wallet taped to the snare drum (which you can consider another version of the towel) was pretty routine as well.

Using a speaker as a transducer. A speaker and a microphone are basically the same thing - a transducer - except that they're designed for different jobs. With Paul McCartney always asking for more bass, Emerick got the idea of using a speaker as a microphone and it worked great, as can be heard on "Paperback Writer" and "Rain". Today, an 8 inch NS-10 speaker has become pretty standard for capturing the extreme bottom of a kick drum, but it took about 40 years after Emerick's experiment to become a standard.

Vocal double-tracking. This is more of a George Martin trick to cover up an iffy vocal track, but the boys (especially John Lennon) loved it so much that they used it whenever they could to make the vocal sound bigger. The Beatles might not have been the first to do this, but their influence was so strong that double tracking has become a standard procedure for generations of vocalists and their producers.


Read more: http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com/2009/09/5-recording-innovations-by-beatles.html#ixzz2eoUQ4FFA
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution


First use of feedback in a rock song: 'I Feel Fine'
First use of a voice through a Leslie Speaker: 'Tomorrow Never Knows'
First use of backwards guitar: 'I'm Only Sleeping'
First use of backwards voices: 'Rain'

http://guides.wikinut.com/Ten-Reasons-Why-the-Beatles-Were-the-Most-Artistically-Significant-Musicians-of-the-20th-Century/dvjma2-t/#The-%26quot%3BMonsters%26quot%3B-of-pop-rock

) I Wanna Hold Your Hand ('63)


While millions of Beatles fans remember this catchy little pop tune as marking John, Paul, George, and Ringo's historic live appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show in February of 1964, a much more significant musical precedent was set with "I Wanna Hold Your Hand."

Wanting to impress American fans (for whom this song was specially written), the Beatles chose to ignore popular convention whereby a song opened with a tag from the verse (or just a short atmospheric intro,) using instead what is essentially a rhythmic chord echo of the tag line of the chorus, "I can't hide." While this unusual compositional departure may have seemed insignificant to the average listener, this deviation what the norm set a musical precedent not only in popular music, but for other genres of music as well.

(*“I Wanna Hold Your Hand” became the Beatles' first Number One hit in America, selling 10,000 copies an hour in New York City alone.)

2) I Feel Fine ('64)


Always exploring new sound and recording techniques, "I Feel Fine," from Beatles For Sale, is the first song in record history to feature guitar "feedback.” Created by what was essentially an amped acoustic guitar, this unique “sustain” special-effect was strategically placed at the very opening of the song, drawing listeners’ ears to the now famous guitar riff that dominates throughout the song. Incorporating what had previously been considered "noise" into this song was the first indication of the many technological innovations the Beatles would bring to the music scene throughout the 1960s.

(*"I Feel Fine" was the first of six Number One songs in a row on the American charts.)

3) I'll Be Back ('64)


A John Lennon composition written for the A Hard Day's Night album, "I'll Be Back" is the first clue of the genius for musical composition the band would develop. Modulating between major and minor keys--virtually key-shifting as only done in classical works--this song ignores traditional compositional convention by having two bridges, while lacking a chorus entirely. Additionally, the fade-out ending arrives half a verse early, creating a visceral response in listeners that underscores the story-line.

Music journalist Robert Sandall wrote in Mojo Magazine: "'I'll Be Back' was the early Beatles at their most prophetic. Their grasp of how to color arrangements in darker or more muted tones foreshadowed an inner journey they eventually undertook in the next three albums." By all musical and artistic standards, this song is nothing short of pure creative genius.

4) Day Tripper ('65)


What many musicologists consider the first true "hard rock" song, the Beatles established a precedent with "Day Tripper" that remains an identifying signature of rock songs to this day, the mood-setting repeating rock theme “riff.”

Released as a “double A-side” single (no designated “B” side), this little masterpiece is also structurally innovative in that it deviates from music convention by starting out as what is known in musician circles as “a 12-bar Blues” pattern, in the key of E major, but then temporarily modulates to the relative minor in the chorus, before returning back to the major. This innovative arrangement would become an identifying signature for future Beatle “rock” songs, and can be heard in thousands of other songs (Rock as well as other genres) written by countless artists thereafter.

5) Norwegian Wood ('65)


“Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown),” from the brilliant Rubber Soul album, is like an artistic representation of the cultural climate ignited by Beatlemania and the Beatle genius at that time in history. Focused around the hypnotic, psychedelic atmosphere promoted by the Beatles (and had become a founding element of the Hippie counterculture), this song is a virtual template for psychedelic songs, and demonstrates the first time in music history that an exotic instrument (the sitar) was incorporation into pop music, essentially opening listeners’ minds to the possibility of “world music.”

(Additionally, John once implied that this song’s title held a deeper, cryptic meaning; that of an extra-marital affair he’d been having, ‘Norwegian wood’ being a play on the phrase, ‘knowing she would,’ a reference to his wife’s possible discovery of his infidelity.)

6. Eleanor Rigby ('66)


“Eleanor Rigby,” the hauntingly beautiful song from Revolver, (the companion album to Rubber Soul), illustrates the continued transformation of the Beatles' evolution from a pop, live-performance band to a more experimental, studio-oriented band.

Again deviating from pop music tradition, none of the Beatles played instruments on this composition, supplying only vocals and musical direction instead. McCartney used a string octet of studio musicians, composed of four violins, two cellos, and two violas, all performing a score co-composed with their producer George Martin. Employing recording techniques not even used in classical music of the time, the instruments were "doubled up"—serving as two string quartets with two instruments playing each part in the quartet. Paul had the microphones placed especially close to the instruments to produce a more vivid and raw (live) sound. Not only was this song infinitely more musically sophisticated (both lyrically and compositionally) than any song previously created in popular music, it raised the bar as to how all songs from that point on would be produced and engineered.

7. Tomorrow Never Knows ('66)


"Tomorrow Never Knows," the last track on the highly acclaimed Revolver album, marks a turning point in both pop music as well as the Beatles’ blossoming creativity. Based on John’s experience reading the Timothy Leary book, The Psychedelic Experience: A Manual Based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead, this song is technically experimental beyond anything ever attempted in popular music (or any other music, for that matter), utilizing a number of techniques never before recorded.

Using automatic double tracking (ADT) to double John’s vocals (which were then sent through a Leslie rotating speaker to create a mystical effect), clever tape “loops” designed by Paul (for transcendental effect), an Indian-inspired modal music structure created my Lennon, it is all held together by a noticeably irregular drum pattern demonstrating Ringo’s rhythmic genius. And if that weren’t enough, “Tomorrow Never Knows” is structurally restricted to just one chord.

This song breaks all established convention regarding musical composition, what a song should sound like, and how a song should be recorded--thus marking the inception of “experimental” music--a genre quite popular today.

8. All You Need is Love ('67)


"All You Need Is Love," the last cut on Magical Mystery Tour, is a Lennon song first performed on Our World, a live satellite broadcast on June 25th, 1967--the first live global television link in entertainment history.

Watched by 400 million people in 26 countries, it was the single largest television audience in history to date. While this relatively straight forward and seemingly simple song focuses around the “All you need is love” chorus, a number of very innovative musical ideas were incorporated into the arrangement. Opening with the French National anthem "La Marseillaise," omitting the first note, it includes excerpts from "two-part Invention #8 in F," by Johann Sebastian Bach (transposed to G and played on 2 piccolo trumpets), "Greensleeves," (played by the strings), and Glenn Miller's "In the Mood" (played on a saxophone) during the long fade-out. And apart from the unique method of audio-visual conveyance, it was the largest call for world peace ever in history; a genuine world-wide, cross-cultural phenomenon.

9. Hey Jude ('68)


"Hey Jude" was released in August of 1968, as the first single from the Beatles' new record label Apple Records. More than seven minutes in length, "Hey Jude" was, at the time, the longest single ever to top the British charts. It also spent nine weeks as Number One in the United States—the longest run at the top of the American charts for a Beatles single. But aside from its unprecedented length and popularity, what makes this song artistically significant is its “coda” (or “outro"), the irresistible sing-a-long at the end that few listeners can resist joining. More common to pieces from the Classical Era, the Beatles’ use of this remarkable musical devise to get listeners involved, has since been mimicked by a succession of musical artists including Prince (“Purple Rain“), Sly and the Family Stone (“Stand”), Bowie (“Station to Station”), Led Zeppelin (“When the Levee Breaks), and countless others. This song illustrates yet another example of the Beatles’ constant thinking outside the traditional box.

10.Helter Skelter ('68)


Appearing on the Beatles’ aptly nicknamed, "White Album," an album with no artwork whatsoever, just the words The Beatles embossed in small letters on a pure white face, “Helter Skelter” was Paul’s admitted and deliberate effort to create a sound as loud and dirty as possible--the noisiest, most raucous vocal, loudest drums, the most driving guitars that could possibly be produced. Known for its clangorous, machinegun-like intro (that grabs listeners and drags them almost mercilessly through this primal Gestaltian adventure), and Ringo’s painful studio outburst, “I’ve got blisters on my fingers!” this song is credited by music experts as being the prototype for “Metal” music.

Taking musical edginess up several notches, it is unlike anything before it--from the first harsh note to the multiple fade-outs--it takes the manual on how to write a pop song, and burns it to cinders. Almost a new art-form, “Helter Skelter” has spawned articles, books, and movies, (and, of course, cults), and has been the subject of discussion in countless social science classes across the country over the past 40 years.

I disagree with your definition of innovation, I don't think it had to be done first. Innovation is more about doing things differently. which they did in terms of song writing, lyrics, introducing and infusing other styles into their music. They began with a new take on rock n roll and then continued at the forefront of music during a time when things changed so quickly and so much in a few short years.

 

[Stato]

Given that we haven't yet have established a single innovation that was down to The Beatles how could they be in a top five or ten?

 

[Stato]

http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/5-recording-innovations-by-beatles.html

First use of feedback in a rock song: 'I Feel Fine'
First use of a voice through a Leslie Speaker: 'Tomorrow Never Knows'
First use of backwards guitar: 'I'm Only Sleeping'
First use of backwards voices: 'Rain'

http://guides.wikinut.com/Ten-Reasons-Why-the-Beatles-Were-the-Most-Artistically-Significant-Musicians-of-the-20th-Century/dvjma2-t/#The-%26quot%3BMonsters%26quot%3B-of-pop-rock

I disagree with your definition of innovation, I don't think it had to be done first. Innovation is more about doing things differently. which they did in terms of song writing, lyrics, introducing and infusing other styles into their music. They began with a new take on rock n roll and then continued at the forefront of music during a time when things changed so quickly and so much in a few short years.

You cannot change the definition of a word to suit your argument.

The dictionary would have to say:

innovation [ˌɪnəˈveɪʃən]
n
1. something newly introduced, such as a new method or device*

2. the act of innovating
innovational adj

innovationist n


* - Unless applied to The Beatles in which case something not new, but done slightly differently so that they can be given credit for it.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

I bought the Jackson 5's first five singles, cant remember them even shaking a tambourine, and I may be wrong, but I bet most of them were written by Motowns people, Holland, Dozier, S.Robinson etc

The early Jackson 5 singles on Motown were indeed written by The Corporation (Berry Gordy, Freddie Perren, Alphonzo Mizell and Deke Richards) and although the Jacksons did the vocals, the instruments were played by Motown's LA session men (and not the Detriot-based Funk Brothers, so it's probably Wilton Felder on bass and not James Jamerson or Bob Babbit).

 

[gripper stebson]

Given that we haven't yet have established a single innovation that was down to The Beatles how could they be in a top five or ten?

They made loads and loads of great music and sold millions and millions of records.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

ONGF is one of the most under-rated albums of all time, by one of the most under-rated groups of the 60's.
I frigging love the Small Faces

Tin Soldier.

 

[Freddie Goodwin.]

I think this is a point where you have to drop the idea of greatest being necessarily better (as weird as that sounds). I for one would put The Beatles up as the greatest band ever, however that isn't to say no one has produced better music, or better albums or better songs. I wouldn't even say they were my favourite group, but just in terms of so many factors, I find it hard to imagine not accepting their legacy as the greatest band that has been.

Very well put.
Many fine artists have been mentioned on this thread but I'm guessing that if you did a street survey and asked a number of people to write down what songs they knew from these artists, I reckon the greatest number of known songs would be Beatles songs. Whatever type of music you are into, you will almost certainly know a fair number of Beatles songs.

 

[BadFish]

You cannot change the definition of a word to suit your argument.

The dictionary would have to say:

innovation [ˌɪnəˈveɪʃən]
n
1. something newly introduced, such as a new method or device*

2. the act of innovating
innovational adj

innovationist n


* - Unless applied to The Beatles in which case something not new, but done slightly differently so that they can be given credit for it.

You will note that your definition says nothing about being the first to do something.

It says something newly introduced

The definition of new

Not existing before; made, introduced, or discovered recently or now for the first time: "new crop varieties".

So using sitar on record was a new discovery used by the Beatles on record. Although they were actually the first but you stretched the definition of first to include guitars that sound like sitars.

 

[Stato]

Without wanting to wade through all of the cut and paste stuff, guitar feedback was being used by Link Wray in the late fifties, strings on rock'n'roll records was done by Buddy Holly and by Leiber and Stoller with Ben E King, the studio tricks discussed are evidence of George Martin's ingenuity, rather than The Beatles' greatness, but the over arching use of the studio as an instrument was done by Phil Spector and on Pet Sounds before The Beatles did it.

I'll leave the subject now because arguing with Beatles evangelists is a bit like arguing with proponents of creationism or intelligent design. They are so wrapped up in the myth that defines their world view that contradictory evidence has to be dismissed, ignored, or discredited and if this doesn't work the goal posts have to be moved. I posted this link to Piero Scaruffi's 1999 Beatles article on the other thread. http://www.scaruffi.com/vol1/beatles.html. Although I would disagree with him on a lot, its a good read if you have a bit of time and perhaps the most interesting part is his 2010 note explaining the reaction he has had from Beatles fans.

 

[BadFish]

Without wanting to wade through all of the cut and paste stuff, guitar feedback was being used by Link Wray in the late fifties, strings on rock'n'roll records was done by Buddy Holly and by Leiber and Stoller with Ben E King, the studio tricks discussed are evidence of George Martin's ingenuity, rather than The Beatles' greatness, but the over arching use of the studio as an instrument was done by Phil Spector and on Pet Sounds before The Beatles did it.

I'll leave the subject now because arguing with Beatles evangelists is a bit like arguing with proponents of creationism or intelligent design. They are so wrapped up in the myth that defines their world view that contradictory evidence has to be dismissed, ignored, or discredited and if this doesn't work the goal posts have to be moved. I posted this link to Piero Scaruffi's 1999 Beatles article on the other thread. http://www.scaruffi.com/vol1/beatles.html. Although I would disagree with him on a lot, its a good read if you have a bit of time and perhaps the most interesting part is his 2010 note explaining the reaction he has had from Beatles fans.

Good for you, it will save you having to answer direct questions or look at the wider argument being put to you.

Your argument of evangelistic behaviour could be mirrored on your good self as you have ignored my argument completely to focus in on one area (which you will happily ignore points which are too involved for you to 'wade through').

I have never claimed that they were the most innovative band of their time,merely that they were one of the most innovative.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

What many musicologists consider the first true "hard rock" song, the Beatles established a precedent with "Day Tripper" that remains an identifying signature of rock songs to this day, the mood-setting repeating rock theme “riff.”

Released as a “double A-side” single (no designated “B” side), this little masterpiece is also structurally innovative in that it deviates from music convention by starting out as what is known in musician circles as “a 12-bar Blues” pattern, in the key of E major, but then temporarily modulates to the relative minor in the chorus, before returning back to the major. This innovative arrangement would become an identifying signature for future Beatle “rock” songs, and can be heard in thousands of other songs (Rock as well as other genres) written by countless artists thereafter.

I had to highlight this part as the whole post was too long.

This however is an example of flat out rewriting rock history to credit the Beatles with things that simply aren't true.

Day Tripper isn't the first "true" hard rock song. I don't know why they'd write such crap.

It's like whoever wrote it never heard of You Really Got Me, All Day and All of the Night and My Generation.

3 songs clearly more identifiable as precursors to hard rock than Daytripper. A simple listening to the songs will make that evident.

In VH1's top 100 hard rock songs of all time Daytripper doesn't even rate a mention. If it was such an influential song to a style of music you'd think it would get a mention.

http://www.stereogum.com/43591/vh1s_100_greatest_hard_rock_songs/list/

 

[HovaGirl]

They are the greatest band because they were so innovative. They influenced all modern music since then, and they are still being played regularly today. Their output in such a short time was staggering and the impact they had whenever a new record or LP was released was front-page news and EVERYBODY was interested in what they would do next, including parents and grandparents.

 

[HovaGirl]

Given that we haven't yet have established a single innovation that was down to The Beatles how could they be in a top five or ten?

Until the Beatles came along, most groups sounded tinny with that early 60s twang sound. The Beatles learnt their craft in the disinterested and noisy drug-infested music venues of Hamburg and they had to make a lot of noise in order to be heard. So their first innovation was a strong drum sound backed with heavy rhythm guitar.

Their second innovation was to stop relying on lovey-dove words, but to pluck words from playbills or newspapers articles for their inspiration. Their songs began to tell stories and were mini rock-operas.

Their third innovation was to break away from guitar and drums and introduce other musical instruments into their music, from organs, to sitars, to full orchestras.

The list goes on. Almost everything they did, musically, had never been done before.

 

[BadFish]

I had to highlight this part as the whole post was too long.

This however is an example of flat out rewriting rock history to credit the Beatles with things that simply aren't true.

Day Tripper isn't the first "true" hard rock song. I don't know why they'd write such crap.

It's like whoever wrote it never heard of You Really Got Me, All Day and All of the Night and My Generation.

3 songs clearly more identifiable as precursors to hard rock than Daytripper. A simple listening to the songs will make that evident.

In VH1's top 100 hard rock songs of all time Daytripper doesn't even rate a mention. If it was such an influential song to a style of music you'd think it would get a mention.

http://www.stereogum.com/43591/vh1s_100_greatest_hard_rock_songs/list/

It actually says what 'many' musicologists consider. So I assume they have their reasons for discounting the Kinks - For what it is worth I agree with you about My Generation and You really got me. My personal opinion counts for little in this discussion as the point I am making is about using objective measures to measure the Greatest Band of All time. I think that using a range of measurements of greatness the Beatles will score highly across the board and in more measures than other bands. Disproving that they are the most innovative (which i accept has been done) does not disprove that they are the greatest.