[Albion] Are Hughton’s tactics too negative?

[Brighton Mod]

Well that was naive. Southampton were odds on to win on Wednesday, we were something like 5-1. We were more than 10-1 to get 6 points.

FRom what I saw of the game we were the better side, Southampton, endorsed by their own supporters were low on confidence and having gone -1 down the crowd were on their backs. Could you give the result at Stoke Saturday by any chance?

 

[Brighton Mod]

Good post, and emphasises that players as well as manager may be cause of negativity.

What is inescapable is that we have joint third fewest goals scored in PL; have a record against top 6 that reads P7 W0 D0 L7 F1 A18; and are in a relegation mix. The latter might not be surprising but it seems credible to ask whether a more positive approach might have adduced a few more points that would have us in top half and comfortable.

I have two beefs: 1) tactics against top 6 - we are only side not to have taken anything from top 6. Five games left, 3 at home, so things could change but the defending Alamo tactics have shown themselves to be badly wanting. Yes we had a go against Chelsea once gave them a two goal start, and were unlucky at Old Trafford, but generally we have sat back and hoped for the wind to blow something in, and against this quality that simply doesn't work; 2) Propper and Stephens seem to get a nosebleed once in opponents half. Better on Saturday but we need them to be providing goals and assists as well being part of back 6; Propper scores for Holland, 0 for us and not many opportunities, Stephens scored 9 goals over last two seasons yet hardly a shot this.

Not sure whether these are due to CH or in game necessities but I find it difficult to see how we can break through to comfort zone without addressing these problems.

With their own jobs on the line managers do not send out a team to play as they will, especially in the PL. The tactics are set before the game and follow the strategy of the manager, if formations and tactics need to be changed during the game the instruction comes from the manager, otherwise what is his purpose. Players do as they are told, because they don't have time to analyse the opposition and scout the opposing team and its tactics. thats another persons task. It pretty much stands to reason that the manager controls what goes on on the pitch and to think otherwise is just dreaming. We have seen the Alamo mentality at the Amex this year, at Carrow Road and St, James Park previously, is it just a coincidence that CH was the manager at the teams when this happened?

 

[Easy 10]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/159...e_fans_expect_too_much_in_the_Premier_League/

Andy Naylor

The inaccuracy of VAR is irritating.

Not Video Assistant Referees. I am referring to Vocal Albion Revisionists.

They appear to have moved the goalposts since the start of the club's debut campaign in the Premier League, when the realistic consensus was that finishing 17th would be a triumph.

Chris Hughton's side have not fallen that far since their August baptism against Manchester City, Leicester and Watford, when they exhibited the understandable naivety associated with newcomers and a new-look squad.

Hughton (below) was not fooled by two away victories by early November and climbing inside the top ten.

He knew as the season wore on and the fixtures became even more demanding that it could not last.

Hence, throughout a one-win run of eight points from 39 ahead of the trip to Southampton - a sequence not dissimilar to that of the hosts and many others in the congested scrap for survival - his approach remained as calm and consistent as ever.

Albion returned from their trip along the south coast with a well-earned point from a solid display against an established top flight outfit that has recently drawn at St Mary's with Spurs and Arsenal and have not lost at home to anyone below 13th.

Not so, according to the VAR's. The gist of their complaint was that Albion sat back after taking the lead when they should have put a poor Southampton side - containing the likes of Ryan Bertrand and James Ward-Prowse - to the sword.

In their world of fantasy football - where they get to choose a forward line of Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar rather than (until January), Glenn Murray, Tomer Hemed and a largely unavailable Sam Baldock, there appears to be no opposition.

The response of Southampton, playing at home in a match they did not dare lose, was deemed irrelevant.

Attack, attack, attack - and win - was the message from the VAR's. Restricting Southampton to barely a chance and a lucky equaliser is simply not good enough.

This warped logic continued through to the invigorating victory at the Amex against West Ham.

This, claim the VAR's, was due to Hughton unlocking the chains, suddenly giving his players an attacking freedom to express themselves which did not previously exist.

Time to divorce the fantasy from the facts. Hughton picked the same team in the same formation in both games, apart from Anthony Knockaert (above) replacing Solly March on the right flank.

The only change from his Championship mantra of 4-4-2 and style of play home and away - which provoked few complaints when Albion were winning regularly - is to 4-4-1-1, with £3 million German Pascal Gross operating as an effective number ten.

Massive tick for Hughton and the recruitment team. Gross added his sixth assist and fifth goal against West Ham.

The manager has continued to play with two wingers, which hardly smacks of caution.

Of course Albion were more positive against West Ham than Southampton, the defensive line slightly higher.

The same difference can be applied to almost every team playing at home compared to away, unless you are blessed with the supreme quality of Pep Guardiola' runaway leaders, capable of imposing themselves irrespective of the setting.

The difference, as is often the case in the Premier League, was down to small details and moments, in particular the "world class" strike from Jose Izquierdo on the hour (the words of David Moyes) when it was 1-1 and an injury depleted West Ham had been in the ascendency at the end of the first half after levelling in eyecatching fashion through Javier Hernandez.



The VAR'S apply similar flawed logic to Albion's pointless record so far against the top six. Apparently they need to 'give it a go' against them - presumably as in the home thrashings by Liverpool and Chelsea.

Consider how Swansea achieved successive home wins against Liverpool and Arsenal.

The Welshmen beat Liverpool with a fortunate goal and an outstanding example of defensive organisation.

They defeated Arsenal with very little possession and a threat on the counter-attack, aided by catastrophic errors by the Gunners.

There is actually a valid argument that Hughton should be more defensive at home against the top sides, perhaps adding the energy of Beram Kayal (below) to the midfield mix in an attempt to limit the pockets of space top class talents exploit.

Fortunately, the VAR's are a tiny minority, obligingly emphasised by a regular moaner on Twitter.

He referred me to a poll on Northstandchat. It asked is Chris Hughton too negative?

Seventy-five per cent of respondents said yes. For context, that was 236 people, less than one per cent of the Albion support against West Ham.

The silent majority get frustrated as well, by individual mistakes, performances, results, substitutions etc.

That is fine and perfectly normal. It is all part of the emotional investment of being a supporter.

It does not endure, because they appreciate the bigger picture. That Albion are in their first season in the best, most competitive and most lucrative league in the world.



That it takes a few transfer windows and seasons to develop a squad to win enough games to reduce the danger of relegation.

That if the worst happened a sensible owner would keep faith - as Burnley did when they were relegated - with a manager with an exceptional track record, devoid of the kind of recurring failures which do not prevent others from being re-employed.

The VAR's are entitled to their opinion - but they are not worth taking seriously.

Here we go...

 

[Billy the Fish]

Andy trolling NSC again.

 

[Bold Seagull]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/159...e_fans_expect_too_much_in_the_Premier_League/

[/I]


Here we go...

Andy trolling NSC again.

Agree with him though.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/159...e_fans_expect_too_much_in_the_Premier_League/

[/I]


Here we go...

Fair comment imo. We haven't been in the bottom three since August, and are still on target, per Giraffe's thread, to stay up. Nobody said it was going to be easy.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

Good piece from Naylor.

He is basically making the "thicko" call but has bothered to articulate the obvious reasoning.

 

[trueblue]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/159...e_fans_expect_too_much_in_the_Premier_League/

[/I]


Here we go...

Good article that. Slightly disagree with the Southampton verdict as I think the team did drop off too much after scoring and allowed a very nervous looking Southampton side to build confidence and get into their stride. But I don't think that's deliberate - just human nature.

 

[Bold Seagull]

We have seen the Alamo mentality at the Amex this year, at Carrow Road and St, James Park previously, is it just a coincidence that CH was the manager at the teams when this happened?

You honestly are just revising history. The reason Newcastle fans were so upset Hughton was sacked was because a) they won the Championship the season before by 11 points scoring 90 goals, and b) when he was sacked they were 11th, scored 24 goals (only 4 teams had scored more!!) and had beaten Sunderland 5-1 at home, and Arsenal 0-1 away! They were a newly promoted team attacking teams. Geordie fans still love him to this day. So there is no coincidence at all.

 

[Surf's Up]

I now think the answer to this question will only reveal itself at the end of the season.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

With their own jobs on the line managers do not send out a team to play as they will, especially in the PL. The tactics are set before the game and follow the strategy of the manager, if formations and tactics need to be changed during the game the instruction comes from the manager, otherwise what is his purpose. Players do as they are told, because they don't have time to analyse the opposition and scout the opposing team and its tactics. thats another persons task. It pretty much stands to reason that the manager controls what goes on on the pitch and to think otherwise is just dreaming. We have seen the Alamo mentality at the Amex this year, at Carrow Road and St, James Park previously, is it just a coincidence that CH was the manager at the teams when this happened?

You honestly are just revising history. The reason Newcastle fans were so upset Hughton was sacked was because a) they won the Championship the season before by 11 points scoring 90 goals, and b) when he was sacked they were 11th, scored 24 goals (only 4 teams had scored more!!) and had beaten Sunderland 5-1 at home, and Arsenal 0-1 away! They were a newly promoted team attacking teams. Geordie fans still love him to this day. So there is no coincidence at all.

And at Norwich CH was sacked after losing against West Brom 5th April. They had 5 games left to save themselves but picked up just 1 point from 15.
So, was it Hughton to blame?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Norwich_City_F.C._season

 

[Bold Seagull]

And at Norwich CH was sacked after losing against West Brom 5th April. They had 5 games left to save themselves but picked up just 1 point from 15.
So, was it Hughton to blame?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Norwich_City_F.C._season

And what you have to remember about Norwich, is that Lambert walked out on them in the June that summer. Hughton had 10 months in charge with a squad that largely wasn't his, and a side that has continued to slide since then. They had a lack of investment given they'd had a couple of good seasons in the top flight, highlighted that their record signing was still only £8m - a small fee by PL standards. Madness that certain posters are insisting his entire managerial career is as a negative one, pretty much based upon a 10 month spell at Norwich!!

 

[Bob'n'weave]

Nice bit of perspective.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

Madness that certain posters are insisting his entire managerial career is as a negative one, pretty much based upon a 10 month spell at Norwich!!

And some of them will add that he was SACKED by Newcastle because their fans got tired of his negative tactics and he found his level as a good Championship manager but he has no Plan B and is too defensive in the Prem and it's all happening again at Brighton now and I told you it would because the Norwich fans said it would and if you actually watch our games you can see us playing too negatively but actually I'm not criticising Houghton I just want him to tweak the balance and be a little bit more positive...

 

[Triggaaar]

FRom what I saw of the game we were the better side, Southampton, endorsed by their own supporters were low on confidence and having gone -1 down the crowd were on their backs. Could you give the result at Stoke Saturday by any chance?

If you've got us down for another 6 points from the next two games, be aware that's less than a 1 in 8 chance.

 

[seagulls4ever]

And at Norwich CH was sacked after losing against West Brom 5th April. They had 5 games left to save themselves but picked up just 1 point from 15.
So, was it Hughton to blame?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Norwich_City_F.C._season

If I recall, the reason he was sacked was because they felt the team had not adequately performed in the games against the lesser sides when they should have picked up points, and their final 5 games were against Fulham, Liverpool, Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal, and they felt under Hughton they were destined to go down. They felt their only chance of staying up was to try and get a 'new manager bounce' against sides they were unlikely to pick up very few points from. They gambled - it didn't work - but under Hughton they probably would have gone down anyway. Whether Hughton was to blame or not and whether he deserved to be sacked would depend on whether he inherited good enough players, whether he recruited the correct players and whether he got the best out of the players which he had. I don't know enough about Norwich to answer that - their fans are in a much better position to do so. But simply saying they had 5 games left to save themselves and only picked up 1 point misrepresents the situation.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

And some of them will add that he was SACKED by Newcastle because their fans got tired of his negative tactics and he found his level as a good Championship manager but he has no Plan B and is too defensive in the Prem and it's all happening again at Brighton now and I told you it would because the Norwich fans said it would and if you actually watch our games you can see us playing too negatively but actually I'm not criticising Houghton I just want him to tweak the balance and be a little bit more positive...

............. Which is why he is held in high regard by Newcastle supporters and why Mike Ashley has admitted it was a mistake to sack him!

 

[Triggaaar]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/159...e_fans_expect_too_much_in_the_Premier_League/

[/I]

Here we go...

TLDR

 

[Triggaaar]

Fair comment imo. We haven't been in the bottom three since August, and are still on target, per Giraffe's thread, to stay up. Nobody said it was going to be easy.

Right, nobody said it was going to be easy.

Good piece from Naylor.

He is basically making the "thicko" call but has bothered to articulate the obvious reasoning.

But how many of our fans are really dumb enough to have thought it would be easy? This board is littered with posts saying '17th will do' etc. We knew a point away would be a good result, but yes, those that went were disappointed with the way the team played - is that really unreasonable of them?

Of course there are a few dumb fans with every club, not sure it warrants a dissertation though.

 

[Triggaaar]

I now think the answer to this question will only reveal itself at the end of the season.

I hate this type of attitude. Deciding which team played best in a game simply by looking at the final score, rather than judging it on the way the teams played.

Apart from watching all the games so far, the most telling thing to me was his comment after our win on Saturday, when he made it clear that sitting back was not his instruction, but just the choice of the men on the field when up against a team that was playing better than them.