[Albion] Are Hughton’s tactics too negative?

[Weststander]

When the likes of Bournemouth can stuff Chelsea 3-0 at Stamford Bridge and SWANSEA FFS can beat both Liverpool and Arsenal in the space of a just over a week, then the answer has to be a big fat resounding YES.

Swansea's was the most cautious PL performance I can recall. Carvahal was very honest about it, everyone back to their own byline and box for the entire game to give "the F1 car no where to go". But with Ayew floating nearer the centre, running between defenders on his own (CMS esque, but with skill). With a handful of counter attacks and a typical set piece goal. On the night they got lucky in that nothing hit their net. WBA and others have been playing that identical deep blocks, their fans moan and its led to managers getting the boot, but every now and then it gets results against the soft Liverpool and other top 6 teams.

Swansea didn't take a swashbuckling game to Liverpool.

 

[Arkwright]

Our set up and style is great for away games but not for home games where we must be more positive.

 

[sir albion]

Swansea's was the most cautious PL performance I can recall. Carvahal was very honest about it, everyone back to their own byline and box for the entire game to give "the F1 car no where to go". Buy with Ayew floating nearer the centre, running between defenders on his own (CMS esque, but with skill). With a handful of counter attacks and a typical set piece goal. On the night they got lucky in that nothing hit their net. WBA and others have been playing that identical deep blocks, their fans moan and its led to managers getting the boot, but every now and then it gets results against the soft Liverpool and other top 6 teams.

Swansea didn't take a swashbuckling game to Liverpool.

Yes but both games they actually scored late goals and that means they actually looked to win rather than sitting back looking for a draw.

 

[Weststander]

Yes but both games they actually scored late goals and that means they actually looked to win rather than sitting back looking for a draw.

Swansea's winner came in the first half.

 

[Claude samdamme]

So you think we are good enough to achieve our clear aim for the season

But you don't have faith in the man you believe will achieve that aim.

Yep - i hope we’ll stay up based on the good start we had and being able to scrape enough points out of the remaining games, but there’s a number of reasons that I don’t have faith in Hughton long term. Like his negative approach, not getting the best out of players (Solly, Izquierdo, Gross now,), falling out with/ freezing out players (Baldock, Knocky, Uwe), lack of flexibility with formations, use of substitutions, development of youth

If we do go down it will be because of his negative game plans

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

It's a shame you've reached for the hyperbole here. It's perfectly valid to criticise certain elements of certain tactics in certain games without wanting to play all out attacking football or to want CH burnt at the stake. I'm still very much a CH in person, I still very much think he is the right manager for us and I still think that, at home, we could be the match of anyone. If you look at the Chelsea game, although we lost 4-0 it wasn't a 4-0 game - Gary Linekar himself said so - and we went Plan B with 5 at the back and attacking wingbacks.

It's away from home where he drives me bonkers and he always has. The sitting on a lead that we do invites poor teams back in to games and it's not just in the Premier League so the quality of opposition argument doesn't stack up. We let QPR back in to a massive game last season. It was so tense I actually took a photo of my heart rate on my HRM watch because I couldn't believe it. Then we did the same at Villa and lost our last chance of the title. Last night we did it again. Southampton were there for the taking and we just sat deep and fed them the ball.

So I've gone for YES. Marginally, he is too negative. Not at home, not in Cup games but in league games away from the start and whenever we take the lead.

FWIW I'm a Level One qualified coach and write regularly about football. Doesn't make my opinion any more valid than yours or the next persons but I say it to counter the "know nothing about tactics" hyperbole.

Hi, fair cop, yes my post was too hyperbolic for this thread. It was a consequence of logging on this morning and seeing numerous threads full of people having a go with nowhere near the nuance that is needed, and then this thread appeared and did my head in. Its turned out to be a well considered thread on the most part. My post would have been better off elsewhere, but hey, at least it got read.

Having said that, 75% of people on this thread think he's too negative? I just don't get that Chris' tactics are too negative. If they were we wouldn't have scored 74 goals last season, a +34 goal difference, so if a tactic can deliver that how can you say its too negative? The tactic works, and with the right players, its way too good for the rest of the division. Its also a tactic that gives players who aren't good enough a fighting chance of staying up.

First of all I don't think you can separate home and away. We do worse away, of course, but the tactics are the same. Indeed I believe this is his great skill as a manager, he gets every member of the squad knowing exactly what is expected of them, in every position, in every game. He doesn't tinker, he doesn't accommodate players who don't fit a role. Certainly he will have different roles playing on different days, but people know what to do with 1 up front, or 2 up front, it works. Its a machine, pretty much. And its a tactic that got us promoted. I'm always drawn to Chris saying, don't get too high after a win, don't get too low after a defeat. Its all part of the same philosophy to keep doing what we do well. NO, its not the most exciting, but its what we do, and we do it well. And it will mean that we almost never are going to have a comfortable result away from home.

I have to say that this season I am PROUD to see us doing what we do well. I know how we will play, and I enjoy seeing us do it well. Sure, the last dozen games have been frustrating, especially Bournemouth, last night, Newcastle, Burnley, although I have to say I haven't been more frustrated this season than the Chelsea game. I'm afraid it was a 4-0 game, because our defence did not play well that day, and they didn't play well because they were not doing everything I talked about in the previous paragraph. And I don't know why. I don't know why Chris changed everything he has been doing for the past three years with us for one game, and its really annoying because I felt we really had a chance that day, and we threw it away with the tactics before a ball had been kicked. I hope he did it out of confidence, and not out of lack of confidence, because if its the latter its the first chink I've seen from him. Glad we're back to the 4 at the back.

Now, the caveat. I do wonder that in this premier league, with so few points being win by the bottom half, with such tight margins between the bottom 8-10, that it is actually better to be more cavalier because if you can catch that lightning in a bottle, grab that 2-0 win away at Liverpool or deliver some other completely unexpected result, then that can probably keep you up on its own. I certainly don't expect nor want CH to do that, it won't work if he changes because its not who he is - but it may be that being less consistent, but grabbing a few fluke results, is a way to stay up. Its no way to get promoted or win a league, but it may be how to stay up.

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

Apologies not read all of the above.
We have tactics

 

[NooBHA]

You're in denial.

I am not - I still firmly believe it

 

[Right Back]

So those who think we are too negative. Would you prefer all that attacking football in the Championship with Hyypia or Garcia?

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

Genuine question - because I know you'll have an opinion - how does that sit with the Miracle Of Tiny Bournemouth. They came in and just carried on going gung-ho with many of the players they's had in League One, including Tommy effin Elphick. I have to admit to concentrating on The Championship in those days because of us. So, is the legend of their attacking play just a legend or is it possible to go for it without getting relegated and with "inferior" players?

I said 'a big part' but not the only part. Plucky Little Bournemouth broke the FFP rules to get promoted and had a couple of players with previous Premier League experience (Boruc, Surman, Gosling, Stanislas) but also ran harder than any team in the Premier League except (I believe) Tottenham in their first season. That work rate went a long way towards covering up any skill deficiencies. I'm not saying our players don't work hard, but we don't play the same sort of scurrying game. Tommy Elphick didn't last long, only 11 games.

 

[drew]

Oh here we go again. ANOTHER opportunity to have a negative, angst-ridden thread full of people moaning that, contrary to the past three years, we suddenly expect Chris to send out a side that commits men forward at will and dang the consequences at the back. This thread is going to be full of people somehow surprised at Chris' tactics, as if they haven't watched a Brighton game for several years, full of people with no football tactical nous whatsoever banging on about how this is sending us down, and a gazillion more over-the-top reactions from people who have just been so completely spoiled by two seasons of winning week in week out they should really go and sit in the corner.

For the record, I never ever expected so many Brighton fans to be turning on Chris Hughton this season. It really makes me angry. And we didn't even F*CKING lose. And there's FIVE F*CKING teams who've had a worse season than us so far.

I thought the Premier League would be hard. I didn't think the hardest part about the Premier League would be coping with my fellow Brighton fans.

Were you at the game or are you commenting from afar?

 

[n1 gull]

So those who think we are too negative. Would you prefer all that attacking football in the Championship with Hyypia or Garcia?

NO. Is that succinct enough for you. If you read the balanced views in this thread you probably wouldn't ask that daft question

 

[Right Back]

Having read the whole thread I think it is a sensible question.

 

[Triggaaar]

I am not - I still firmly believe it

It's believing it that means you're in denial. We're in the poop mate.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Hi, fair cop, yes my post was too hyperbolic for this thread. It was a consequence of logging on this morning and seeing numerous threads full of people having a go with nowhere near the nuance that is needed, and then this thread appeared and did my head in. Its turned out to be a well considered thread on the most part. My post would have been better off elsewhere, but hey, at least it got read.

Having said that, 75% of people on this thread think he's too negative? I just don't get that Chris' tactics are too negative. If they were we wouldn't have scored 74 goals last season, a +34 goal difference, so if a tactic can deliver that how can you say its too negative? The tactic works, and with the right players, its way too good for the rest of the division. Its also a tactic that gives players who aren't good enough a fighting chance of staying up.

First of all I don't think you can separate home and away. We do worse away, of course, but the tactics are the same. Indeed I believe this is his great skill as a manager, he gets every member of the squad knowing exactly what is expected of them, in every position, in every game. He doesn't tinker, he doesn't accommodate players who don't fit a role. Certainly he will have different roles playing on different days, but people know what to do with 1 up front, or 2 up front, it works. Its a machine, pretty much. And its a tactic that got us promoted. I'm always drawn to Chris saying, don't get too high after a win, don't get too low after a defeat. Its all part of the same philosophy to keep doing what we do well. NO, its not the most exciting, but its what we do, and we do it well. And it will mean that we almost never are going to have a comfortable result away from home.

I have to say that this season I am PROUD to see us doing what we do well. I know how we will play, and I enjoy seeing us do it well. Sure, the last dozen games have been frustrating, especially Bournemouth, last night, Newcastle, Burnley, although I have to say I haven't been more frustrated this season than the Chelsea game. I'm afraid it was a 4-0 game, because our defence did not play well that day, and they didn't play well because they were not doing everything I talked about in the previous paragraph. And I don't know why. I don't know why Chris changed everything he has been doing for the past three years with us for one game, and its really annoying because I felt we really had a chance that day, and we threw it away with the tactics before a ball had been kicked. I hope he did it out of confidence, and not out of lack of confidence, because if its the latter its the first chink I've seen from him. Glad we're back to the 4 at the back.

Now, the caveat. I do wonder that in this premier league, with so few points being win by the bottom half, with such tight margins between the bottom 8-10, that it is actually better to be more cavalier because if you can catch that lightning in a bottle, grab that 2-0 win away at Liverpool or deliver some other completely unexpected result, then that can probably keep you up on its own. I certainly don't expect nor want CH to do that, it won't work if he changes because its not who he is - but it may be that being less consistent, but grabbing a few fluke results, is a way to stay up. Its no way to get promoted or win a league, but it may be how to stay up.

See, that's a much better post than your original one. We may not totally agree but you've made decent points and defended them. I'm with you on the caveat. The wins over Liverpool and Arsenal may be the games that keep Swansea up.

They say don't die wondering - I currently think we will.

I said 'a big part' but not the only part. Plucky Little Bournemouth broke the FFP rules to get promoted and had a couple of players with previous Premier League experience (Boruc, Surman, Gosling, Stanislas) but also ran harder than any team in the Premier League except (I believe) Tottenham in their first season. That work rate went a long way towards covering up any skill deficiencies. I'm not saying our players don't work hard, but we don't play the same sort of scurrying game. Tommy Elphick didn't last long, only 11 games.

Which suggests the answer is better fitness training?

Sorry, I'm being facetious. I know how much we run. Gross covers every blade of grass, the wingers have to track back, Murray's work rate was excellent last night. But it might suggest we spend too much time running in the wrong direction, which goes back to the thread / poll title.

 

[Triggaaar]

Having read the whole thread I think it is a sensible question.

Get in, I knew I had it in me.

 

[GT49er]

So those who think we are too negative. Would you prefer all that attacking football in the Championship with Hyypia or Garcia?

Haven't you read this thread?

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Voted yes but believe the question is more complex than a yes/ no answer. Sitting back, soaking up pressure and hitting teams on the counter attack is fine. Our game against Man U is an example of how we can use that system and use it well. But we played with confidence and composure then but we don’t now. It’s not just the ‘negative’ tactics that is affecting our play. It’s the mind set. The lack of composure on and off the ball. If we recapture that, the tactics may not seem so bad. Maybe...

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

See, that's a much better post than your original one. We may not totally agree but you've made decent points and defended them. I'm with you on the caveat. The wins over Liverpool and Arsenal may be the games that keep Swansea up.

They say don't die wondering - I currently think we will.



Which suggests the answer is better fitness training?

Sorry, I'm being facetious. I know how much we run. Gross covers every blade of grass, the wingers have to track back, Murray's work rate was excellent last night. But it might suggest we spend too much time running in the wrong direction, which goes back to the thread / poll title.

Let's not forget that PLB finished only five points above the drop zone in their first season (which we could stil;l, theoretically, do) and had the third-worst defence in the Premier League. It's not as though they were that much better than we are this season. They did things a different way, but it didn't produce a vastly superior outcome.

 

[Kitcatt]

I voted ‘No’ but really it’s ‘No’ for the home games as I think we’ve looked pretty good at home & had Lady Luck been on our side we would be sitting pretty in 10th. Away, however, we’re too negative. West Ham, Man Utd aside (of the ones I’ve been too) we’ve been woeful & that ‘home’ energy & purpose has been missing massively - is that tactics that results in those performances?