[Football] Anyone else going to watch the England game ONLY if Moder is playing

[Guinness Boy]

Apologies if I misunderstood. Albeit your point must be rather nuanced because I still feel that England and Brighton are about as good as they could be, and I generally enjoy watching them, er.....that's it.

In the case of England, we have seen great appointments of desperarion, lots of money thrown at people who did the job without giving a toss. For Southgate it was last chance saloon. He's not as good a coach as Potter but his job is rather different. I think the job matters to Southgate and the only sort I can think of to replace him with would be another young manager such as Potter. All the old English managers are shit. And the foreigners don't give a shit.

As for Brighton, we don't have the money or cachet of England to make an Ancelotti-style appointment and we'd have to take a punt on a young swivel-eyed German like stains and narwich have done. A risk. I think the Potter appointment has been very good with, as you say, potential.

I'm happy with all that but I certainly agree that England have not won the Euros and Brighton have not won the premier league. I noticed that.

This thread was quite busy last night so, with every quote and reply, peoples points get diluted. Mine are simple and, hopefully, not contradictory.

1) I see a lot of blue and white specs when it comes to England but our DoF has been heavily involved in BOTH.
2) I'd watch England even if we were really, really shit. I watched Brighton when we were really, really shit.
3) England are good but not great.

There. *dusts hands*

As an aside, it would be great to combine Brighton's undoubtedly watchable style with England's results. My word. Both teams would UNBELIEVABLE. However, Southgate is constrained, IMO, by not wanting to end up on the back page of The Scum portrayed as a turnip so it's safety first for him, while Brighton are not playing the likes of San Marino, Andorra, Panama and Sweden

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Apologies if I misunderstood. Albeit your point must be rather nuanced because I still feel that England and Brighton are about as good as they could be, and I generally enjoy watching them, er.....that's it.

In the case of England, we have seen great appointments - of desperation, lots of money thrown at people who did the job without giving a toss. For Southgate it was last chance saloon. He's not as good a coach as Potter but his job is rather different. I think the job matters to Southgate and the only sort I can think of to replace him with would be another young manager such as Potter. All the old English managers are shit. And the foreigners don't give a shit.

As for Brighton, we don't have the money or cachet of England to make an Ancelotti-style appointment and we'd have to take a punt on a young swivel-eyed German like stains and narwich have done. A risk. I think the Potter appointment has been very good with, as you say, potential.

I'm happy with all that but I certainly agree that England have not won the Euros and Brighton have not won the premier league. I noticed that.

There was a time we weren’t even qualifying for major tournaments, now a semi final of a World Cup for only the 3rd time in our history is because of a lucky set of fixtures. Funny that when referring to Albion being ‘unfortunate’ not to have more points in games we should have clearly won - you’re not allowed to say that as you make your own luck etc. however when talking about a management / setup situation you don’t like, success is actually because of good fortune.

 

[Machiavelli]

England are better now, under the present regime, than they have ever been.

Same with Brighton.

Precisely this. I'd go further than you, however, and say, even more so with Brighton. I struggle to comprehend how that isn't a statement of the f&*(ing obvious, although other B&HA fans seem so keen to deny this somehow, anyhow.

 

[Machiavelli]

We'll see in the summer. As much fun as 2018 was (and it really was) we had a VERY easy run of games. The Euros will have a much tougher draw to negotiate. The Under 21s have just gone out of their version far earlier than they should have, given the quality.

Ditto with Brighton. We're on the cusp of something truly great but we're not there yet.

But you've answered a different point to the two I was addressing. Firstly there seem to be plenty of people around claiming to hate Southgate and only watching last night because Moder was playing without understanding that Southgate was appointed for very similar reasons to Potter and, indeed, that in my opinion one of the reasons we must have appointed Ashworth was because of his success with Southgate.

Secondly, as much as England may be "better now" we are hardly box office (perhaps why so many on here choose to bow out and criticise). Safe team selections, routine quotes and predictable formations. Team don't make a mistake England (unless you're John Stones).

I only tuned in to watch Moder, but that's got diddly squat to do with Southgate or Ashworth. It's got to do with a dislike of nationalism, and a boredom of watching England for decades, especially in qualifiers. It's also to do with rationing my football watching (which I struggle with at times) in this world that is becoming more and more like that Mitchell & Webb sketch.
I note you (seem to be) forging a connection between Ashworth, Southgate and Potter. In terms of your critique of Southgate, if we turn to Potter we could say: bold team selections, routine quotations and unpredictable, adaptable formations.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So tedious watching England under Southgate. Litterally have no interest in them these days.

Enough interest to post on this thread, though

 

[timbha]

This thread was quite busy last night so, with every quote and reply, peoples points get diluted. Mine are simple and, hopefully, not contradictory.

1) I see a lot of blue and white specs when it comes to England but our DoF has been heavily involved in BOTH.
2) I'd watch England even if we were really, really shit. I watched Brighton when we were really, really shit.
3) England are good but not great.

There. *dusts hands*

As an aside, it would be great to combine Brighton's undoubtedly watchable style with England's results. My word. Both teams would UNBELIEVABLE. However, Southgate is constrained, IMO, by not wanting to end up on the back page of The Scum portrayed as a turnip so it's safety first for him, while Brighton are not playing the likes of San Marino, Andorra, Panama and Sweden

Yep, that’s about where I am.

I do wonder if some of the anti England posters on here were more passionate about England when Albion were crap and picking up loanees from Barnet, etc rather than being in the PL, at the Amex and signing players for £ms. I like Southgate (there I’ve said it) and sympathise with the way PL managers treat him. He has forged a great relationship with the likes of Maguire and Kane who love their country and won’t let him down. I don’t blame him for sticking with them.

 

[Audax]

We'll see in the summer. As much fun as 2018 was (and it really was) we had a VERY easy run of games. The Euros will have a much tougher draw to negotiate. The Under 21s have just gone out of their version far earlier than they should have, given the quality.

Ditto with Brighton. We're on the cusp of something truly great but we're not there yet.

But you've answered a different point to the two I was addressing. Firstly there seem to be plenty of people around claiming to hate Southgate and only watching last night because Moder was playing without understanding that Southgate was appointed for very similar reasons to Potter and, indeed, that in my opinion one of the reasons we must have appointed Ashworth was because of his success with Southgate.

Secondly, as much as England may be "better now" we are hardly box office (perhaps why so many on here choose to bow out and criticise). Safe team selections, routine quotes and predictable formations. Team don't make a mistake England (unless you're John Stones).

I see where you're coming from, but I do think there are key differences between England and Brighton. One of which is that Potter isn't so risk averse that he's scared to try something new (cf Zeqiri replacing Burn, playing Moder out of position, various formation changes etc). Unlike Southgate, who keeps going back to the same players over and over again and only really tinkers at the edges every now and again.

I'd also argue that maybe there's a little over-estimation of the influence of Ashworth within the England setup. If he was really as influential as you appear to be suggesting, surely some of that influence might remain even once he arrives at Brighton and result in him being able to nudge Southgate in the right direction re: potentially selecting a Brighton player? And yet we've seen nothing of the sort, unless it's Ashworth telling Southgate that Dunk isn't good enough for a call up? Or maybe the reason he left the England setup and we were able to grab him is because he felt he no longer had the influence he wanted/needed?

I know a number of folks here dislike Ashworth and hold that quote about his job being to keep the manager in a job (and then the subsequent Hughton sacking) as a major negative against him. But let's look at the bigger picture: Hughton sacking aside (and is it possible that sacking was because Hughton didn't heed Ashworth enough?), while Ashworth has been with us we've seen a significant shift at the club. There's a major focus on youth, with older main-stays in the first team being pushed to the fringes as younger players come through. We've seen a big shift in the recruitment priorities - while we were a club who hunted youth pre-Ashworth, since Ashworth has come in I've seen a big improvement in how we target that recruitment. We're not just grabbing youth to send to the academy, we're on the hunt for young first-team potential as well. And then we reinforce that with signings like Lallana and Welbeck who provide that quality experience and leadership for the younger players. Add to that putting Potter in the mix, the substantial shift in our playing style that he's overseen, and generally speaking I'd argue Ashworth has done a good job for us. Certainly better than those who preceded him.

All that remains for Brighton is to make that final breakthrough getting the front line to shoot with confidence.

Conversely, I think there's still a lot of questions for Southgate and the England set up to answer.

 

[Stat Brother]

Yep, that’s about where I am.

I do wonder if some of the anti England posters on here were more passionate about England when Albion were crap and picking up loanees from Barnet, etc rather than being in the PL, at the Amex and signing players for £ms. I like Southgate (there I’ve said it) and sympathise with the way PL managers treat him. He has forged a great relationship with the likes of Maguire and Kane who love their country and won’t let him down. I don’t blame him for sticking with them.

England would be a lot easier to love if there was a collective acceptance of our actual standing in international football.
Bizarrely enough winning a tournament knocking out Germany, Spain & France on the way to lifting the trophy still would under represent the fervour leading up to the bloody thing.

 

[Icy Gull]

Yep, that’s about where I am.

I do wonder if some of the anti England posters on here were more passionate about England when Albion were crap and picking up loanees from Barnet, etc rather than being in the PL, at the Amex and signing players for £ms. I like Southgate (there I’ve said it) and sympathise with the way PL managers treat him. He has forged a great relationship with the likes of Maguire and Kane who love their country and won’t let him down. I don’t blame him for sticking with them.

Not this poster, I have been disillusioned by England for decades. I do have more interest these days than when we were at the arse end of the league though. There are Albion players who could potentially play for England and quite a few who play for other national teams. This has piqued my interest dramatically but hasn’t brought back the love I once had, many many, years ago for our national team. I will watch any team with a Albion player with much more interest than an England team

 

[SeagullinExile]

Enough interest to post on this thread, though

Not really Harry! Posting here is far more interesting than watching England play football!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

England would be a lot easier to love if there was a collective acceptance of our actual standing in international football.
Bizarrely enough winning a tournament knocking out Germany, Spain & France on the way to lifting the trophy still would under represent the fervour leading up to the bloody thing.

Blame the press for building up and then knocking them down. I hate the hype.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Pleased for Moder. Even more pleased that England won.

I can't be arsed to wade through every post on this thread but I find the (English) anti England attitude strange. I support England for the same reasons I support Brighton. It's where I'm from.

Yes there was a time, culminating in the Iceland game, where it was tough going watching England but there have been decades where that's true for the Albion. Doesn't stop me watching or wanting them to win.

As for claims about people having an elevated opinion of our place in world football: who are these people? I don't know anyone who thinks England should win or are favourites for a tournament. Not for at least 15 years. It's true I don't live in England anymore so maybe I'm missing it all and the people I know both back home and here in Japan are just very considered and realistic.

It's not being arrogant to enjoy it when England win or progress to the later stages of a tournament(a la 2018). It's not arrogant to say that we have players who if they played for another country people would be wary about.

I'm not a massive fan of Southgate but I am team England.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I note you (seem to be) forging a connection between Ashworth, Southgate and Potter. In terms of your critique of Southgate, if we turn to Potter we could say: bold team selections, routine quotations and unpredictable, adaptable formations.

Not "forging".

England had a perceived "dinosaur" in Allerdyce. Southgate was brought in and started to bring in a more passing game with wingbacks. DA was involved in the Team England setup.

Brighton had a perceived "safety first" coach in Hughton. Potter was brought in and started to bring in a passing (and more attacking) form of football. DA was involved in Team Brighton.

People not seeing this parallel would be a bit obtuse IMO.

I therefore find Potter = good / Southgate = bad as an absolute just a touch blue and white tinted.

 

[Icy Gull]

Not "forging".

England had a perceived "dinosaur" in Allerdyce. Southgate was brought in and started to bring in a more passing game with wingbacks. DA was involved in the Team England setup.

Brighton had a perceived "safety first" coach in Hughton. Potter was brought in and started to bring in a passing (and more attacking) form of football. DA was involved in Team Brighton.

People not seeing this parallel would be a bit obtuse IMO.

I therefore find Potter = good / Southgate = bad as an absolute just a touch blue and white tinted.

Genuine question, do you believe that Southgate is tactically anywhere near as good as GP, given that he has the choice of every English player in world? I find it frightening to think how good England could be with GP as their manager. However, as an Albion fan, nightmares don’t get much worse

Yes, this post need to be considered the opinion of a Potter fanboy who thinks Southgate is a tactically inept clown

 

[blue-shifted]

I think Southgate is tactically competent.

Remember, these matches were always going to be exercises in nicking points whilst avoiding injury. Look at some of the other results. Jogi Low, won't be getting nice headlines this morning, but the Germans will undoubtedly be a force in the summer.

GS had, at the very least, a decent world cup. Enough to be given a chance to show he can get us deep into another tournament. Anything can happen in tournament football, but I expect us to do well.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Not "forging".

England had a perceived "dinosaur" in Allerdyce. Southgate was brought in and started to bring in a more passing game with wingbacks. DA was involved in the Team England setup.

Brighton had a perceived "safety first" coach in Hughton. Potter was brought in and started to bring in a passing (and more attacking) form of football. DA was involved in Team Brighton.

People not seeing this parallel would be a bit obtuse IMO.

I therefore find Potter = good / Southgate = bad as an absolute just a touch blue and white tinted.

Ashworth was in the England setup from Sept 2012, so over saw most of Hodgson's reign, and was 4 years into the job when Allardyce was appointed. That was obviously an unplanned debacle and so England turned to promotion from within given the success in the U21s. So in his England and Brighton roles he's seen the appointments of Allardyce, Southgate and Potter. What links the 3? Probably nothing other than being seen as the right men for the job at that time all for completely different reasons. At the end of the day, Ashworth is a technical director, not a first team manager or coach.

Completely reasonable to hold any opinion on Potter / Southgate really as the link between is tenuous at best, if not completely non existent.

 

[Swansman]

Not "forging".

England had a perceived "dinosaur" in Allerdyce. Southgate was brought in and started to bring in a more passing game with wingbacks. DA was involved in the Team England setup.

Brighton had a perceived "safety first" coach in Hughton. Potter was brought in and started to bring in a passing (and more attacking) form of football. DA was involved in Team Brighton.

People not seeing this parallel would be a bit obtuse IMO.

I therefore find Potter = good / Southgate = bad as an absolute just a touch blue and white tinted.

DA was also part of the three man FA committe that appointed Sam Allardyce.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Genuine question, do you believe that Southgate is tactically anywhere near as good as GP, given that he has the choice of every English player in world? I find it frightening to think how good England could be with GP as their manager. However, as an Albion fan, nightmares don’t get much worse

Yes, this post need to be considered the opinion of a Potter fanboy who thinks Southgate is a tactically inept clown

The answer is in my earlier posts. Southgate has the eyes of the nation and its tabloids on him so is naturally more cautious - hence the 4-2-3-1 with two CDMs covering two average centre backs. Earlier in the job, interestingly, he wasn't. Wingbacks were revolutionary for an England team.

Ashworth was in the England setup from Sept 2012, so over saw most of Hodgson's reign, and was 4 years into the job when Allardyce was appointed. That was obviously an unplanned debacle and so England turned to promotion from within given the success in the U21s. So in his England and Brighton roles he's seen the appointments of Allardyce, Southgate and Potter. What links the 3? Probably nothing other than being seen as the right men for the job at that time all for completely different reasons. At the end of the day, Ashworth is a technical director, not a first team manager or coach.

Completely reasonable to hold any opinion on Potter / Southgate really as the link between is tenuous at best, if not completely non existent.

Yes, definitely obtuse.

The point is that the success of Southgate may have influenced the appointment of Potter, What he did from 2012-16 isn't relevant. As above, when GS started at England he introduced wingbacks, possession football etc. And in 2018 (against weak teams) it worked.

 

[Icy Gull]

The answer is in my earlier posts. Southgate has the eyes of the nation and its tabloids on him so is naturally more cautious - hence the 4-2-3-1 with two CDMs covering two average centre backs. Earlier in the job, interestingly, he wasn't. Wingbacks were revolutionary for an England team.



Yes, definitely obtuse.

The point is that the success of Southgate may have influenced the appointment of Potter, What he did from 2012-16 isn't relevant. As above, when GS started at England he introduced wingbacks, possession football etc. And in 2018 (against weak teams) it worked.

So Southgate is swayed by fear of failure and changes his tactics because of it. There’s the difference, our manager is NOT naturally cautious

We are never going to agree are we?

 

[Guinness Boy]

So Southgate is swayed by fear of failure and changes his tactics because of it. There’s the difference, our manager is NOT naturally cautious

We are never going to agree are we?

I'm not sure you and a few others get it.

Correct, Potter is not naturally cautious. But would he be managing the best PL stars there are in the glare of a World Cup with scumbags like The Sun on his case every two minutes?

Knowing GP, probably not but you don't know that and I don't know that.

Fundamentally this is not a "Potter In / Out" question in any way though. As explained countless times on this thread I find it odd that people, especially English ones, can take against Team England but be fervently behind Team Brighton when they have a similar ethos.