[Finance] Any employment law experts on NSC, preferably near Shoreham ?

[Binney on acid]

My girlfriend has worked for a multi national company for 5 years. Her department are being made redundant. She has been treated contemptuously by the company, and I'd like to pay for a consultation with an employment law expert for her, as it's seriously affecting her mental wellbeing. I believe she's being asked to sign a disclaimer, in order to get anything above statutory redundancy pay, but she may have enough evidence of non compliance / underhand tactics to be able to take them to a tribunal. She needs an expert to explain the legal ramifications to her. Any volunteers out there? What's the current hourly rate ?

 

[CheeseRolls]

James Willis at Stevens Drake in Crawley is a specialist in this area.

Suggest you check as the employer should really be paying for this advice.

 

[Crawley Dingo]

Her department are being made redundant.

HR or DEI? There is a lot of that.

 

[Professor Plum]

Uh?

Where did I suggest looking for legal advice online? Or offer any kind of legal advice? You really need to read people’s posts more carefully mate before commenting on them.

Unlike you, I do have a legal qualification but I have offered NO legal advice here other than to speak to colleagues about any potential legal action before starting any individual legal action (as class actions can be more successful against deep-pocket multi-nationals as the employer is in this case because it’s cheaper for the claimants who can pool resources) - BUT in the first instance I said ‘contact ACAS’ which is a free and independent telephone helpline for all matters relating to employment law..

And NO, my years of working for firms of solicitors says your ’advice’ could be both costly and unnecessary at this stage, contacting a solicitor is NOT the right thing to do unless you want to fork out anything up to £400 for initial meeting/advice which may not even be necessary once the OP has spoken to ACAS about other options available including eg an ACAS mediation tribunal other than initiating an expensive and private legal case.. Most solicitors will strongly advise you meeting with them and signing a retainer/services contract rather than proffer case-specific advice on the phone. If you can find one that says free of charge over the phone, you “could” have a case (and most will say they “could” make a case - the real question is the likelihood of it succeeding) , be prepared to fork out a wad of money to sit down and discuss anything in detail.

I repeat the advice I offered above, contact ACAS who will need to be informed anyway if an employment tribunal route is used:

“Acas gives employees and employers free, impartial advice on workplace rights, rules and best practice. We also offer training and help to resolve disputes. More about Acas.

Acas | Making working life better for everyone in Britain

Acas is the workplace expert for England, Wales and Scotland. We provide free and impartial advice for employers and employees, training and help resolve disputes.

www.acas.org.uk

Make a claim to an employment tribunal

How to take an employer to a tribunal: the hearing, what happens if you lose your case, how to appeal.

www.gov.uk

“Before you make a claim to an employment tribunal, you must tell Acas(Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service). The time limit for making a claim is put on hold while Acas helps you resolve your dispute.”

Just to add, check your Home insurance policy to see if it includes legal fees - I have up to £50,000 on my policy for legal costs and includes initial legal advice - it was very useful in a case I had against a building company but you would have to use the insurance company’s recommended solicitors if you opted for this route and they are not the best firms tbh.

TLDR

As said above contact ACAS as a first step

OTT response.

 

[Zeberdi]

Well fair enough if you’ve had a different experience from mine. I guess there’s always the possibility that lower level managers misunderstand the procedure. It’s just not what I’ve come across. There are always grievances and a ton of emotion around redundancies but when the dust settles a bit people usually have to accept they’ve been f***ed over and get on with working out how to deal with it. Note I didn’t say she shouldn’t take advice. That seems v sensible if she genuinely thinks that due process hasn’t been followed. Just that she shouldn’t get her hopes up too much. IME the corporate bods know the law. A future update would be interesting.

No, people do not have to accept unlawful and unreasonable employment practices or being “fcuked over” by multi-national corporates. Businesses are found guilty breaking employment law frequently - years of employment case law have been built on it.

FYI - your suggestion that ‘lower level” managers might ‘misunderstand’ the procedure is irrelevant - the Business is liable for breaches of employment law not the individual managers.

Hope that wasn’t too OTT for you

 

[Professor Plum]

No, people do not have to accept unlawful and unreasonable employment practices or being “fcuked over” by multi-national corporates. Businesses are found guilty breaking employment law frequently - years of employment case law have been built on it.

FYI - your suggestion that ‘lower level” managers might ‘misunderstand’ the procedure is irrelevant - the Business is liable for breaches of employment law not the individual managers.

Hope that wasn’t too OTT for you

My point was that people's instinctive response is grief and a sense of outrage. "They can’t do that! And after all these years!" But that in most cases, they unfortunately can and do do it. Yes there will always be exceptions and if someone genuinely thinks their treatment is illegal or that they’re the victim of a mistake of some kind, of course they should seek redress.

 

[Zeberdi]

. Yes there will always be exceptions and if someone genuinely thinks their treatment is illegal or that they’re the victim of a mistake of some kind, of course they should seek redress.

I agree obviously with what you are saying re emotional reactions here but the whole premise of the thread and subsequent responses are that the gf of the OP believes the dismissal/redundancy has been legally unfair/underhand.

Hence my suggestion to phone ACAS - a free legal advice service and defending my original point that legal advice and subsequent work by a solicitor can be costly- especially against deep pocket defendants.

Involving solicitors and by extension even just the threat of legal action in a Letter Before Action to the ‘other side’ by a solicitor can be burdensome financially and IMO based on personal experience should be a last resort or after at least speaking to unions or conciliation services like ACAS in the first instance.

 

[Lenny Rider]

It is quite concerning how a number of HR depts have almost become 'Orwellian' in what they do, Binney's sad tale isn't the first one I've heard recently, and I know from some of my daughters former colleagues experiences at BA, some of the stunts HR tried to pull during and post Covid were right out of the Stasi playbook.

It is sadly at the moment a horrible world out there.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

I was made redundant at 20 and again at 26 back in the 80s. Its a sickening blow and the loss of self worth can be harmful, if you let it. But on both occasions, I updated my CV and got myself on the market. Within a few weeks I had some interviews lined up. I note they have given the OP's g/f 9 months notice.

Normally, my attitude to my employers was quite loyal, but once redundancy notice is served that soon evaporates. Have you been given indicative redundancy payment amounts? If it's a pittance, just get out ASAP. It's a horrible atmosphere where there's redundancy looming and if you are susceptible to MH issues, sometimes just leaving for a new job is the right thing to do for your own good health.

At each redundancy, the next job I got was better paid and better prospects and I was able to look back and call each redundancy event a blessing in disguise.

 

[jcdenton08]

Uh?

Where did I suggest looking for legal advice online? Or offer any kind of legal advice? You really need to read people’s posts more carefully mate before commenting on them.

Unlike you, I do have a legal qualification but I have offered NO legal advice here other than to speak to colleagues about any potential legal action before starting any individual legal action (as class actions can be more successful against deep-pocket multi-nationals as the employer is in this case because it’s cheaper for the claimants who can pool resources) - BUT in the first instance I said ‘contact ACAS’ which is a free and independent telephone helpline for all matters relating to employment law..

And NO, my years of working for firms of solicitors says your ’advice’ could be both costly and unnecessary at this stage, contacting a solicitor is NOT the right thing to do unless you want to fork out anything up to £400 for initial meeting/advice which may not even be necessary once the OP has spoken to ACAS about other options available including eg an ACAS mediation tribunal other than initiating an expensive and private legal case.. Most solicitors will strongly advise you meeting with them and signing a retainer/services contract rather than proffer case-specific advice on the phone. If you can find one that says free of charge over the phone, you “could” have a case (and most will say they “could” make a case - the real question is the likelihood of it succeeding) , be prepared to fork out a wad of money to sit down and discuss anything in detail.

I repeat the advice I offered above, contact ACAS who will need to be informed anyway if an employment tribunal route is used:

“Acas gives employees and employers free, impartial advice on workplace rights, rules and best practice. We also offer training and help to resolve disputes. More about Acas.

Acas | Making working life better for everyone in Britain

Acas is the workplace expert for England, Wales and Scotland. We provide free and impartial advice for employers and employees, training and help resolve disputes.

www.acas.org.uk

Make a claim to an employment tribunal

How to take an employer to a tribunal: the hearing, what happens if you lose your case, how to appeal.

www.gov.uk

“Before you make a claim to an employment tribunal, you must tell Acas(Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service). The time limit for making a claim is put on hold while Acas helps you resolve your dispute.”

Just to add, check your Home insurance policy to see if it includes legal fees - I have up to £50,000 on my policy for legal costs and includes initial legal advice - it was very useful in a case I had against a building company but you would have to use the insurance company’s recommended solicitors if you opted for this route and they are not the best firms tbh.

TLDR

As said above contact ACAS as a first step

Well obviously I’m not reading all that.

 

[Zeberdi]

Well obviously I’m not reading all that.

you don’t have to - the TLDR was there for that purpose but your rather misleading suggestion that my initial post was the worst example of seeking legal help online, needed to be addressed.

No one has offered legal advice on this thread least of all me but reiterating the points I’ve made, personally I wouldn’t spend money on solicitors fees to progress an unfair dismissal case against a multi-national corporation - I would contact a union or conciliation service in the first instance.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It is quite concerning how a number of HR depts have almost become 'Orwellian' in what they do, Binney's sad tale isn't the first one I've heard recently, and I know from some of my daughters former colleagues experiences at BA, some of the stunts HR tried to pull during and post Covid were right out of the Stasi playbook.

It is sadly at the moment a horrible world out there.

They're called Human Remains for a reason.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Don’t agree. Went through several restructures in big corporations where everything was planned and scripted to avoid issues, but so often those managing parts of the process (and critical discussions with individuals) rode roughshod over due process, company policy and ultimately HR legislation.

100% worth getting advice. Would also recommend either recording all meetings and/or having someone else present.

Whilst. I cannot and would not comment on individual company settlements, the following should ALWAYS be borne in mind.

A compaby restructure has only two possible overriding objectives, to lower costs and/or to increase revenue. At no point did a board of directors sit down with the express intention of making their employees lives easier/better above all else.

Therefore if a reduction in the size of a workforce is deemed necessary this is intended to be achieved as cheaply as possible. That should be remembered at every stage of negotiation.

 

[Binney on acid]

Regretfully, has no union to contact.

 

[Professor Plum]

I agree obviously with what you are saying re emotional reactions here but the whole premise of the thread and subsequent responses are that the gf of the OP believes the dismissal/redundancy has been legally unfair/underhand.

Hence my suggestion to phone ACAS - a free legal advice service and defending my original point that legal advice and subsequent work by a solicitor can be costly- especially against deep pocket defendants.

Involving solicitors and by extension even just the threat of legal action in a Letter Before Action to the ‘other side’ by a solicitor can be burdensome financially and IMO based on personal experience should be a last resort or after at least speaking to unions or conciliation services like ACAS in the first instance.

I couldn’t glean from the OP that this was a point of law. It may be or it may not. Hard to know from the info given. Underhand? Very possibly. Almost all ‘restructurings' are underhand and often inhumane. Whether that involves illegality is the question best left to a specialist.

I was made redundant at 20 and again at 26 back in the 80s. Its a sickening blow and the loss of self worth can be harmful, if you let it. But on both occasions, I updated my CV and got myself on the market. Within a few weeks I had some interviews lined up. I note they have given the OP's g/f 9 months notice.

Normally, my attitude to my employers was quite loyal, but once redundancy notice is served that soon evaporates. Have you been given indicative redundancy payment amounts? If it's a pittance, just get out ASAP. It's a horrible atmosphere where there's redundancy looming and if you are susceptible to MH issues, sometimes just leaving for a new job is the right thing to do for your own good health.

At each redundancy, the next job I got was better paid and better prospects and I was able to look back and call each redundancy event a blessing in disguise.

This. I was made redundant 4 times and every time I was initially angry and hurt before getting on with the task of finding my next move. I was lucky to have a good relationship with a particular recruitment company that helped me on 2 occasions. But after all 4 redundancies I ended up in a much better place, and better paid. And for two of them I was over 50 which is a notoriously difficult age to get back on your feet. In my case I truly think redundancy served me well though that sometimes wasn’t immediately apparent. Like most people I used to often think about changing jobs but apathy got the better of me. Redundancy forced my hand.

I’m retired now but I keep reading that unemployment is low and vacancies at an all-time high. So my general advice (not aimed at the OP in particular) would be to spend any notice period you have devoting energy to finding a better job with nicer people. Yes, explore all options regarding redress and a legal challenge if you really are the victim of an illegality. But don’t get obsessed with it. Some people stew over these things for months rather than issuing the ever-useful "f*** 'em" and sorting out their next move.

 

[alanfp]

Regretfully, has no union to contact.

I was surprised that no-one else had pointed to the trade union as the first port of call!

It may not be too late to join. My experience is that although unions prefer you to join BEFORE you have an issue, they will try to assist her even though she has only just joined.

I recommend that she pursues this avenue ASAP. She can probably join online today (around £10 - £15 per month) and start making contact with their advice dept. tomorrow. She can get advice from the union IN ADDITION TO advice from the other avenues mentioned previously in this thread.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/join-a-union

Finally, you (and she) have my sympathy.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I’m retired now but I keep reading that unemployment is low and vacancies at an all-time high.

Load of rubbish. There are more and more people out of work every week - most job application numbers run into the hundreds for each role. What is equally obvious is that since the budget employers have withdrawn vacancies that were there before the budget.

 

[Professor Plum]

Load of rubbish. There are more and more people out of work every week - most job application numbers run into the hundreds for each role. What is equally obvious is that since the budget employers have withdrawn vacancies that were there before the budget.

Ok fair enough. Much depends on what sort of employment we’re talking about I guess.

 

[Zeberdi]

Solicitors based on personal experience should be a last resort or after at least speaking to unions or conciliation services like ACAS in the first instance.

I wouldn’t spend money on solicitors fees to progress an unfair dismissal case against a multi-national corporation - I would contact a union or conciliation service in the first instance.

I was surprised that no-one else had pointed to the trade union as the first port of call!

couldn’t glean from the OP that this was a point of law. It may be or it may not. Hard to know from the info given. Underhand? Very possibly. Almost all ‘restructurings' are underhand and often inhumane. Whether that involves illegality is the question best left to a specialist.

Not sure why you keep trying to start an argument - advising the OP speaks to specialists in employment law is exactly what everyone on this thread has been suggesting including myself because that is what the OP was specifically asking for..

No one is trying to litigate an employment case here on NSC!

 

[Madafwo]

I was surprised that no-one else had pointed to the trade union as the first port of call!

It may not be too late to join. My experience is that although unions prefer you to join BEFORE you have an issue, they will try to assist her even though she has only just joined.

I recommend that she pursues this avenue ASAP. She can probably join online today (around £10 - £15 per month) and start making contact with their advice dept. tomorrow. She can get advice from the union IN ADDITION TO advice from the other avenues mentioned previously in this thread.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/join-a-union

Finally, you (and she) have my sympathy.

This would have been my advice as well, unions get a lot bad press, but they really are there for you at times like this.

 

[Professor Plum]

Not sure why you keep trying to start an argument - advising the OP speaks to specialists in employment law is exactly what everyone on this thread has been suggesting including myself because that is what the OP was specifically asking for..

No one is trying to litigate an employment case here on NSC!

Oh FFS. I’m not trying to start an argument. I’ve repeatedly agreed that the OP’s gf should get some advice if she thinks her employer has behaved illegally. My point was to offer a wider perspective based on personal experience. I’ve seen many people chasing HR depts down a rabbit hole and getting obsessed about redress when they would have been better served planning their next move. This is not aimed at the OP as (again) we don’t know the details of the case. I’m out.