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Another piece of coalition common sense bites the dust



The Large One

Who's Next?
Jul 7, 2003
52,343
97.2FM
An update...


The government's back-to-work schemes have suffered a setback after Appeal Court judges agreed with a university graduate's claim that unpaid schemes were legally flawed.

Cait Reilly, 24, claimed that requiring her to work for nothing at a Poundland store breached laws on forced labour.

Judges quashed the regulations underpinning the work schemes.

But Miss Reilly's solicitors and the government have clashed on the implications of the ruling.

The government said it was seeking permission to appeal to the Supreme Court.

It will also bring new, more precise, regulations to Parliament later in the day, but the case will be seen as a setback for the Department of Work and Pensions' (DWP's) flagship back-to-work schemes.

Miss Reilly, University of Birmingham geology graduate, and 40-year-old unemployed HGV driver Jamie Wilson, from Nottingham, both succeeded in their claims that the unpaid schemes were legally flawed. They had lost their original case, but part of this decision has now been reversed by the Appeal Court.

Miss Reilly said that in November 2011 she had to leave her voluntary work at a local museum and work unpaid at the Poundland store in Kings Heath, Birmingham, under a scheme known as the "sector-based work academy".

She was told that if she did not carry out the work placement - which, she said, involved stacking shelves and cleaning floors - she would lose her Jobseeker's Allowance.

Mr Wilson was told that his Jobseeker's Allowance would be stopped after he refused to take part in the Community Action Programme, which his lawyers said would have involved him working unpaid for 30 hours per week for six months.

Solicitor Tessa Gregory, of Public Interest Lawyers, which represented the duo, said: "This judgment sends Iain Duncan Smith back to the drawing board to make fresh regulations which are fair and comply with the court's ruling.

"Until that time, nobody can be lawfully forced to participate in schemes affected such as the Work Programme and the Community Action Programme.

"All of those who have been stripped of their benefits have a right to claim the money back that has been unlawfully taken away from them."

This could not happen until the end of the legal process. Solicitors said they were confident this case would ultimately be won, but the government said there would be no compensation.

"We have no intention of giving back money to anyone who has had their benefits removed because they refused to take getting into work seriously. We are currently considering a range of options to ensure this does not happen," said a spokesman for the DWP.

The government also pointed out that the Appeal Court judges backed the High Court's view that requiring jobseekers to participate in the scheme did not breach their human rights.

It said that it would bring new regulations forward straight away, allowing these schemes to continue.

"The court has backed our right to require people to take part in programmes which will help get them into work. It is ridiculous to say this is forced labour. This ruling ensures we can continue with these important schemes," said Employment Minister Mark Hoban.

"We are, however, disappointed and surprised at the court's decision on our regulations. There needed to be flexibility, so we could give people the right support to meet their needs and get them into a job. We do not agree with the court's judgement and are seeking permission to appeal, but new regulations will be tabled to avoid any uncertainty.

"Ultimately, the judgement confirms that it is right that we expect people to take getting into work seriously if they want to claim benefits."

Miss Reilly said she was delighted with the ruling, claiming that making her give up her voluntary work and sending her to Poundland was wrong.

"Those two weeks were a complete waste of my time, as the experience did not help me get a job," she said.

"I was not given any training and I was left with no time to do my voluntary work or search for other jobs.

"The only beneficiary was Poundland, a multimillion-pound company. Later I found out that I should never have been told the placement was compulsory.

"I don't think I am above working in shops like Poundland. I now work part-time in a supermarket. It is just that I expect to get paid for working."

She said she hoped the government would "rethink" how it tackled long-term unemployment.

"I agree we need to get people back to work, but the best way of doing that is by helping them, not punishing them."
 




CheeseRolls

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 27, 2009
6,231
Shoreham Beach
Far too radical, the state employs over 20,000 civil servants to administer the tax credit system...............why not sack them all and design a system that means people pay less in tax in the first place?

It might be bad for Newcastle and Preston, however the broader wins are substantial.................especially in preventing fraud which the tax credit system is particularly prone to.

Civil Servant Invented 1,400 Children In £1.2m Tax Credit Fraud - Tax Law - The Solicitor

Great idea - if you can persuade me how we transition from the current mess, to your ideal state, without screwing over millions of people, I am up for this. Is your stripped down tax system based on direct or indirect taxation ?
 


Seagull73

Sienna's Heaven
Jul 26, 2003
3,382
Not Lewes
The nub of this thread was originally about alleged 'forced labour'. The case the woman is bringing, and the defence by the DWP are separate from the central point you're making.

"To allow the claim to proceed … would lead to unprecedented disruption and prejudice to third parties. The imposition of a condition on the entitlement to benefit that a person undertakes certain work-related activity does not require a person to perform forced or compulsory labour. The only effect of such provisions is that a person needs to do the required acts in order to be paid a benefit. They are not forced to do those acts."

One - by 'third parties', does he mean the likes of Poundland? If so, tough shit.

Two, the woman may have fallen into a trap of believing the system is 'forced labour' - and hence illegal. You could argue that no-one is forcing anyone to do anything (well, the DWP is arguing that), though when the alternative is pretty unpalatable to that individual, and proving 'forced labour' might be tricky, surely 'bullying by coercion' wouldn't be far off the mark. Would that be enough for her to win the case?


In a statement the DWP said: "We will be contesting these cases vigorously. These schemes are not slave labour. They play an important part in giving jobseekers the skills and experience they need to find work. It is entirely reasonable to ask jobseekers to take real steps towards finding work if they are claiming benefits."

Surely demonstrably untrue? What skill and experience are achieved in wiping trodden in dogshit off the floor? Unless your ambition in life is to be a dogshit wiper, I suppose.


All of the above is separate, I suspect, from your ideal of getting people to train (whether by work placement or by education) for something appropriate should the right job or similar job ever come along.

I am not saying that I disagree with any of what the woman is saying, because it benefits a privately run business and offers her no chance of improving her skills, contrary to what the DWP is claiming. And yes your very last point is one that I am completely making given that you know that is what I work on now.

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No not now you ain't you prick

Show me where I have ever said you tosser.
 








Silk

New member
May 4, 2012
2,488
Uckfield
Hold on a sec, if you guys think people should be forced to work for their JSA, that's your perogative. Personally I find it distasteful but each to their own.

But what you conveniently ignore is that Poundland made a pre tax profit in excess of £30m in the last finanicial year so why do they need people to work for them for free? Wouldn't it be better for it to either be a) charity/ community based (big society, remember that??) or b) to give them experience in a field that they actually wished to get into?

Also, why would Poundland even consider paying anything more than the derisory wages they currently offer when they know there is a sackful of "free" labour round the corner. That's really great for the working man isn't it....

When are we going to lean that this deserving/undeserving poor arguement does no working class person any favours. The only people really benefiting from this are Poundland shareholders.

Now, THAT'S more like common sense.

THIS!!
 


Seasidesage

New member
May 19, 2009
4,467
Brighton, United Kingdom
On your first point, I'm not saying that can't have money, just earn it.

Second point, because it creates a downward spiral. If somebody has something to get up for in the morning, it will give them a sense of purpose. Anyway, you could turn that argument on it's head and say, well if it's only £70, why not make them earn it.

And on your final point, you have to be very careful with minimum wage because that could drive inflation, but more importantly, could drive firms to employ even less because they can't afford the staff.

All of which detracts from the point, which is - why shouldn't job-seekers be made to do some sort of work, voluntary or otherwise, to earn jobseekers allowance, housing benefit etc?? It may even be a cash-cow for the government, because if profit making firms like Iceland or Poundland want these people to do menial tasks, they have to pay the government for them....?

I don't see you making much of a distinction about the value of the work here Mr Outraged of Tunbridge Wells
 


Seagull73

Sienna's Heaven
Jul 26, 2003
3,382
Not Lewes
I don't notice you qualifying it by saying it needed to be worthwhile work?


I have, several times. Try reading my posts, if you can be bothered, seeing as you haven't read them first time round.

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I don't see you making much of a distinction about the value of the work here Mr Outraged of Tunbridge Wells

I don't live in Tunbridge Wells. By the way, you've only pointed out what I haven't said, not what I did say.
 




glasfryn

cleaning up cat sick
Nov 29, 2005
20,261
somewhere in Eastbourne
Unfortunately very little common sense is used these days regarding the government. If common sense was used we would:
Have a eu referendum now.
Stop child benefit.
Stop benefit for those that have no intention of working.
Pay for all elderly care so homes do not have to be sold.
Free prescriptions.
Ban no win no fee firms so we are not constantly being threatened with being sued.
Stop aid to all countries and get our own back on track.
Stop paying benefits to foreigners who come over and have no money or job lined up.
Get out of Afghanistan.
Sort out the human rights crap that allows criminals the right to a family life etc

Rant over. These are my honest opinions and I accept there are arguments for and against. I am just pissed off that all the governments ever do is talk the talk but do nothing to change things when they supposedly have the power.

I find myself strangely agreeing with most of this
my daughter who is disabled rang me last night excitedly because she has two job interviews and it looks likely she will get one of the jobs shite wages and not a job anyone would want but she is and always has been keen to work but has always been hampered by her disability.
now on the other hand someone with the name Cait spelled that way will always have a disability of her own
 


I'm in favour of a scheme which encourages people to work in order to get benefits, although I don't agree with their rationale or the manner in which they've made a complete pig's ear of it.

The scheme is designed to allegedly give people skills valued by employers, which I suppose is the logic behind sending them into the private sector (rather than making them do jobs in the public sector). However realistically these people are unlikely to be given jobs of substantial import (primarily because they are only there short-term) so are unlikely to require or gain any substantial skillset. All the while doing (for free, as far as the firm is concerned) jobs that may otherwise be filled (on a full or part time basis) by workers receiving a genuine wage.

I'd prefer to see a scheme whereby the point was to make better use of resources - i.e. to ensure that those that are able to work are doing so. This might be work in the voluntary sector or it might be public sector tasks which are currently under-represented due to austerity. The time should be relatively flexible (to allow it to be fitted around job interviews) and thoroughly part time (30 hours is 4 days a week, which sounds like a lot given that these people should also be applying for jobs and working on their other skills - I'd go for more like 25 hours). These jobs have societal benefits and may help to motivate some of the (relatively small number of) long-term unemployed back into the workforce.

The issue, of course, is that any scheme on this scale would cost money to run (in the form of civil servants to organise the scheme and supervise workers) - but I find it hard to believe that the positive outcomes wouldn't at least cover this expense.
 


Seagull73

Sienna's Heaven
Jul 26, 2003
3,382
Not Lewes
I'm in favour of a scheme which encourages people to work in order to get benefits, although I don't agree with their rationale or the manner in which they've made a complete pig's ear of it.

The scheme is designed to allegedly give people skills valued by employers, which I suppose is the logic behind sending them into the private sector (rather than making them do jobs in the public sector). However realistically these people are unlikely to be given jobs of substantial import (primarily because they are only there short-term) so are unlikely to require or gain any substantial skillset. All the while doing (for free, as far as the firm is concerned) jobs that may otherwise be filled (on a full or part time basis) by workers receiving a genuine wage.

I'd prefer to see a scheme whereby the point was to make better use of resources - i.e. to ensure that those that are able to work are doing so. This might be work in the voluntary sector or it might be public sector tasks which are currently under-represented due to austerity. The time should be relatively flexible (to allow it to be fitted around job interviews) and thoroughly part time (30 hours is 4 days a week, which sounds like a lot given that these people should also be applying for jobs and working on their other skills - I'd go for more like 25 hours). These jobs have societal benefits and may help to motivate some of the (relatively small number of) long-term unemployed back into the workforce.

The issue, of course, is that any scheme on this scale would cost money to run (in the form of civil servants to organise the scheme and supervise workers) - but I find it hard to believe that the positive outcomes wouldn't at least cover this expense.

There are several schemes out there now which run exactly like this and even more by offering educational workshops and vocational and practical skills basis learning to improve employability. This is one that I work on now.

My point is about looking at those who are effectively 'scrounging' off the state because they can't be arsed to work, or they are better off with what the state gives them.
 




yxee

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2011
2,521
Manchester
When the article says "forced to work", they mean "asked to work or face their benefits being taken away from them", no?

There is no human right to free money.
 


Seagull73

Sienna's Heaven
Jul 26, 2003
3,382
Not Lewes
When the article says "forced to work", they mean "asked to work or face their benefits being taken away from them", no?

There is no human right to free money.

This is very true, however, in this case, it is about the type of work she was being asked to do. The fact it was for Poundland and directly benefitting a privately run corporation is the piece that most people would agree is wrong.
 


There are several schemes out there now which run exactly like this and even more by offering educational workshops and vocational and practical skills basis learning to improve employability. This is one that I work on now.

Brilliant. Let's do more of these then, rather than giving money to private companies to take on unpaid workers.

My point is about looking at those who are effectively 'scrounging' off the state because they can't be arsed to work, or they are better off with what the state gives them.

...and I completely agree with you. I have no problem with asking people to work to claim some of their benefits (accepting that many benefits cannot of course be evaluated in this way). I think we'd all agree that in this case they've made a complete balls-up of their attempt, however.
 




brakespear

Doctor Worm
Feb 24, 2009
12,326
Sleeping on the roof
Hold on a sec, if you guys think people should be forced to work for their JSA, that's your perogative. Personally I find it distasteful but each to their own.

But what you conveniently ignore is that Poundland made a pre tax profit in excess of £30m in the last finanicial year so why do they need people to work for them for free? Wouldn't it be better for it to either be a) charity/ community based (big society, remember that??) or b) to give them experience in a field that they actually wished to get into?

Also, why would Poundland even consider paying anything more than the derisory wages they currently offer when they know there is a sackful of "free" labour round the corner. That's really great for the working man isn't it....

When are we going to lean that this deserving/undeserving poor arguement does no working class person any favours. The only people really benefiting from this are Poundland shareholders.

spot on :clap2:
 


BLOCK F

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2009
6,723
So us taxpayers fork out so that a graduate can be trained in how to clean floors for a profitable retail organisation ?
Why don't Poundstretcher pay an unemployed person to do this manual job, rather than pretend it is a training opportunity, clearly it is not.

Who exactly is benefiting from this arrangement ?

Got to agree with this.
What is the point of it all.
I understand the young lady was doing voluntary work in a museum,thus gaining work experience in her chosen field,not wasting her time stacking shelves in ruddy Poundland.
We have an enormous problem in this country with youth unemployment, ranging from the virtually unemployable to high class graduates.Successive Governments have emphasised the importance of further education and have clobbered students with huge debts.The least they deserve imho , is a rather more constructive attitude towards helping them gain suitable employment.
As usual, Government policy misses the target with these kind of broad brush declarations and the problems of those who won't work and those who can't find jobs goes on unabated.
 




Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
31,267
Hopefully, this outcome will force a well-intentioned government to come up with a workable policy. This is PRECISELY the sort of issue that could have won the Tories a majority had they bothered to sit down and really try to crack it.

I agree with the idea of a National Minimum Wage. I also buy the idea that in order to get JSA the claimant should be prepared to do at least some work. I therefore buy the idea that the JSA is the equivalent to 10-12 hours of work at the minimum wage and that the claimant - at some point - would be expected to work for those hours OR, if not, lose some / all benefit.

Fair enough - if a claimant had to work 20 hours "for free" in order to preserve their £56.25 JSA then that is plainly wrong.

We've had unemploment benefit, we've had Jobseeker's Allowance, maybe now is the time to rebrand it "Work Credit" or something similar, as there's nothing to indicate that work has to be done to get it.
 




spring hall convert

Well-known member
Nov 3, 2009
9,608
Brighton
We have an enormous problem in this country with youth unemployment, ranging from the virtually unemployable to high class graduates.Successive Governments have emphasised the importance of further education and have clobbered students with huge debts.The least they deserve imho , is a rather more constructive attitude towards helping them gain suitable employment.

Well said.
 


Camicus

New member
Originally Posted by Camicus

Errrrrm to claim JSA you have had to pay in to the system.
That's completely wrong for starters....

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That's completely wrong for starters....

Qualifying Criteria for Job Seekers' Allowance Contribution Based

Job Seekers' Allowance contribution-based is a non-income assessed benefit. In order to qualify you must satisfy all the Basic Rules of Entitlement AND you must have paid (or been credited with) sufficient national insurance contributions in one of the two complete tax years before the start of the calendar year in which you claim. Self-employed contributions do not qualify for contribution-based Jobseeker’s Allowance. See further information on National Insurance and Benefits.


From Yougov website not really bothered one way or the other but it would be nice to start from a point of fact rather than myth
 


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