[Football] Andorra vs. England

[portlock seagull]

It wasn't always the case. Some of the weaker nations then are strong now. I remember England putting eight past Turkey (twice) and lamenting only a couple being squeezed past Luxembourg. There was always a lot of canon fodder in there. Who can forget the sack cloth and ashes rituals after the defeat in Switzerland in 1981 ? A draw would be an okay result now.

There's a bit more now. But the major nations have simply got more major.

I think a lot of folk enjoy turning up at Wembley for a good 'anging. Yet I'm looking at the Albania match and seeing that they can still reach the play-offs and it could be quite competitive. But I also think the tournaments are excellent for the minor teams. If only to give a reality check to other nations. Just because we are born in England we shouldn't get all high and mighty about things.

And who will think of our Harry ? He wants that record.

No, no there really wasn’t. Not least because Europe was ‘smaller’, and Luxembourg the only real Minnow by today’s standards who we didn’t get to play every qualifying campaign. Switzerland have never been a powerhouse, but neither were they ever a pushover. I remember all those games too, but we weren’t expected to win them 8-0 with a second string team. England will now never not qualify again for Euros and World Cups, it’s rigged now. I wonder why that is…hmmm?

 

[Eeyore]

No, no there really wasn’t. Not least because Europe was ‘smaller’, and Luxembourg the only real Minnow by today’s standards who we didn’t get to play every qualifying campaign. Switzerland have never been a powerhouse, but neither were they ever a pushover. I remember all those games too, but we weren’t expected to win them 8-0 with a second string team. England will now never not qualify again for Euros and World Cups, it’s rigged now. I wonder why that is…hmmm?

How can it be rigged ?

England's group would simply read:

England
Poland
Hungary
Albania

You can't re-unite nations. If you take out the really weak ones then the groups just become smaller, not stronger. England have had some fortunate draws in recent times. The 12 points against the minnows are also deducted for the other teams in the group. You still have to beat the rest of them.

It's actually harder to qualify for the World Cup now because only one nation is automatic. But the expansion to thirty two teams means that, if we are seeded, the opportunity is greater (there are ten seeds). The last time we had a major headache was in 1996-98 when we fell in with Italy. Of course, 2008 was a disaster of our own making.

We could have gone for this time:

England
Turkey/Sweden
Iceland
Israel
Kosovo

...as the worst draw.

Take out the smaller nations and it's no different. Congeal the groups and the top two go through.

If we missed seeding then we have an issue.

 

[Eeyore]

Alright. I'll concede you point.

However, be careful how much excitement you wish for:

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Points of note though:

In 1976-78 England missed out on seeding and ended up with Italy and two also rans. A single defeat in 1976 cost them.

In 1992-94 they could have got Scotland but ended up with Bergkamp and co. Norway had not qualified for any tournament since before the war. It was the same as if someone like Estonia had stormed the group. Added to that we were crap. Two qualifying added to the wailing.

 

[Sheebo]

Alright. I'll concede you point.

However, be careful how much excitement you wish for:

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And the Euro 2008 (I think) Croatia one - or was it 2012.

Either way the process is still pretty much the same as the ones you quote - we’re just a very very good footballing nation now - but that is a hard point to accept for some bizarrely - and that’s why I remind people on these threads. 3rd in the world - literally. Enjoy the fact we qualify with ease these days because we’re good - save the drama for the tournos guys!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

And the Euro 2008 (I think) Croatia one - or was it 2012.

Either way the process is still pretty much the same as the ones you quote - we’re just a very very good footballing nation now - but that is a hard point to accept for some bizarrely - and that’s why I remind people on these threads. 3rd in the world - literally. Enjoy the fact we qualify with ease these days because we’re good - save the drama for the tournos guys!

This.

FFS

 

[jimhigham]

Me during the international break…

 

[amexer]

Do agree should have pre qualification to these tournaments to avoid so many meaningless games.. Just like FA cup the smaller club you are the more rounds you have to play to get to later rounds
What a pointless game yesterday Belgium v Italy 3 rd place playoff. Just to make money. So much so neither fielded full side

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

How can it be rigged ?

England's group would simply read:

England
Poland
Hungary
Albania

You can't re-unite nations. If you take out the really weak ones then the groups just become smaller, not stronger. England have had some fortunate draws in recent times. The 12 points against the minnows are also deducted for the other teams in the group. You still have to beat the rest of them.

It's actually harder to qualify for the World Cup now because only one nation is automatic. But the expansion to thirty two teams means that, if we are seeded, the opportunity is greater (there are ten seeds). The last time we had a major headache was in 1996-98 when we fell in with Italy. Of course, 2008 was a disaster of our own making.

We could have gone for this time:

England
Turkey/Sweden
Iceland
Israel
Kosovo

...as the worst draw.

Take out the smaller nations and it's no different. Congeal the groups and the top two go through.

If we missed seeding then we have an issue.

We were 0-0 with Hungary at HT, but there was no tension because we knew a draw would be fine, without that safety net it may have been a bit more tense.

Till recently us cruising in qualification hasn’t really done us any favours.

Not really that tough is it? Sweden would cause no more issues than Poland and Turkey are not very good, but for me it’s more the overload of internationals and our players not getting crippled by some Andorran butcher

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

It wasn't always the case. Some of the weaker nations then are strong now. I remember England putting eight past Turkey (twice) and lamenting only a couple being squeezed past Luxembourg. There was always a lot of canon fodder in there. Who can forget the sack cloth and ashes rituals after the defeat in Switzerland in 1981 ? A draw would be an okay result now.

There's a bit more now. But the major nations have simply got more major.

I think a lot of folk enjoy turning up at Wembley for a good 'anging. Yet I'm looking at the Albania match and seeing that they can still reach the play-offs and it could be quite competitive. But I also think the tournaments are excellent for the minor teams. If only to give a reality check to other nations. Just because we are born in England we shouldn't get all high and mighty about things.

And who will think of our Harry ? He wants that record.

The nations that improve would have the chance to improve rankings and get into the main draw themselves when they improve

What improvement have San Marino/Andorra made in the past 20 years?

Luxembourg have improved recently because they have been playing teams at their level and getting confidence up, which is why the Nations League and conference league are a good thing.

If UEFA had any brains they could overhaul it all in a way that benefits everyone

 

[Swansman]

The nations that improve would have the chance to improve rankings and get into the main draw themselves when they improve

What improvement have San Marino/Andorra made in the past 20 years?

Luxembourg have improved recently because they have been playing teams at their level and getting confidence up, which is why the Nations League and conference league are a good thing.

If UEFA had any brains they could overhaul it all in a way that benefits everyone

San Marino and Andorra also played teams at their level recently, why would it only affect Luxembourg?

Anyway I dont think that is why Luxembourg are better now. I think the reason they are better is because they have 25+ professional players while San Marino and Andorra both have none. A population of 630 000 people compared to Andorra (77 000) and San Marino (33 000) obviously makes a gigantic difference.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

San Marino and Andorra also played teams at their level recently, why would it only affect Luxembourg?

Anyway I dont think that is why Luxembourg are better now. I think the reason they are better is because they have 25+ professional players while San Marino and Andorra both have none. A population of 630 000 people compared to Andorra (77 000) and San Marino (33 000) obviously makes a gigantic difference.

Fair points, so if they are not going to improve why are we not making them go through pre qualifying ?

What is the end goal for these countries?

Andorra have picked up some ok results in the NL as well, they just haven’t really shown it when the play the next level teams - mid range teams Ireland etc

 

[Eeyore]

We were 0-0 with Hungary at HT, but there was no tension because we knew a draw would be fine, without that safety net it may have been a bit more tense.

Till recently us cruising in qualification hasn’t really done us any favours.

Not really that tough is it? Sweden would cause no more issues than Poland and Turkey are not very good, but for me it’s more the overload of internationals and our players not getting crippled by some Andorran butcher

Your last point is probably the most valid one.

My main issue was the idea that so many smaller nations has made it easier. It hasn't, there are just more games to play. But to a degree that is solved when they expand the groups like they have and only offer one automatic place. As long as you are seeded then it's pole position. If you are not, and end up with an Italy or France, it becomes much harder.

40 years ago England (just about) qualified from a group of five in second place. It's six this time round although some do have five.

I can't see how it can be done differently, except by having less groups and two qualifying automatically. That doesn't make it more challenging because even if you take out some teams there is still the extra qualifying place.

The fact still remains that by being seeded there is a huge advantage.

 

[seagullwedgee]

There are 55 teams in the European qualifying groups for the World Cup. Of those, 16 teams could be considered minnows or minnow+.

How about those 16 teams compete in pre-qualifying groups of 4, with only the winner of each group going through to qualifying proper?

That would eliminate 12 teams, from qualifying proper, and would remove about 100 meaningless fixtures from proper qualifying.

 

[Swansman]

Fair points, so if they are not going to improve why are we not making them go through pre qualifying ?

What is the end goal for these countries?

Andorra have picked up some ok results in the NL as well, they just haven’t really shown it when the play the next level teams - mid range teams Ireland etc

Why would they need to go through pre-qualifying?

There problem isnt some end goal. Do they need to have one?

 

[Swansman]

There are 55 teams in the European qualifying groups for the World Cup. Of those, 16 teams could be considered minnows or minnow+.

How about those 16 teams compete in pre-qualifying groups of 4, with only the winner of each group going through to qualifying proper?

That would eliminate 12 teams, from qualifying proper, and would remove about 100 meaningless fixtures from proper qualifying.

FIFA and the FAs would still want the income from games so the "meaningless fixtures" would only be replaced by other meaningless fixtures (friendlies).

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Why would they need to go through pre-qualifying?

There problem isnt some end goal. Do they need to have one?

Yes, all sports team need to have a goal other wise what’s the point?

Is San Marinos to qualify for a major comp? Improve to a competitive level - at the moment they are pointless

 

[Swansman]

Yes, all sports team need to have a goal other wise what’s the point?

Is San Marinos to qualify for a major comp? Improve to a competitive level - at the moment they are pointless

That might be the point for you but for a lot of nations the point is that it is fun with football and fun to play against the best every now and then, despite the guaranteed loss.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Teams have historically gone miles up and down the rankings.

Hungary, been pretty bad for 40 years, but in the 50's were the best team in the world. Turkey, used to be whipping boys in the 80s then got to a semi. Smaller nations need to be supported in order to improve.

However, there are some who have no chance at all of getting up the rankings and being a serious opponent. The likes of San Marino and Andorra are barely even countries.

As a minimum, to get into w/c qualifying automatically you should ....

Have your own domestic league structure
Have a minimum number of professional players (say 10)
Have a credible plan for improvement with the end goal of world cup qualification

Pre qualifying for those that don't

 

[seagullwedgee]

I think the English FA would feel they are plying too many meaningless games, and I would imagine the clubs and their insurers take a very dim view of a £150m talent being exposed to a part time 41 year old thug, who could and probably would given the chance crock someone’s entire career.

England already play too many fixtures. It’s not too much of a leap of faith to go back to where European qualification used to be, with 24, or 32, or 40 teams, all the established big hitting soccer nations, joined by the best from the minnows.

 

[Insel affe]

Why would they need to go through pre-qualifying?

Because quite simply they are shite, and waste everyone's time, in this day and age when we are trying to reduce our carbon footprint across the globe, why even bother going to San Marino or the likes, complete waste of time and energy. so localise the shite teams together, makes perfect sense, plus they will have something meaningful to play for with a chance of improving playing against other shite.

There problem isnt some end goal. Do they need to have one?

Oh ok, they do not need a motive or target, it is just the taking part that counts, is that right ?

Choo... Choo...here we go all aboard the no such thing as winners or losers train....