'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far?

[chimneys]

Have you been to Hillsborough to a match? I'm not being funny but when you've been there, you can see how easily a crush could happen, and also how the police and stewards could have managed the crowds so much easier. Even now, I feel uncomfortable when I know we've got the lower tier rather than the upper tier.
Tomorrow evening is a case in point, the concourse at Watford is extremely narrow and uncomfortable when there is a crowd. I dread to think what would happen if there was an emergency there.

To their shame, of the 100 or so league grounds I've been to, the Anfield Road Lower is one of the worst/most cramped concourses I have ever experienced! "I dread to think what would happen if there was an emergency there!"

And dont start me on the view from the rear 7 or 8 rows!!

 

[Bwian]

The guy throwing it at me has not read it himself! FFS.

Of course I haven't read 400,000 pages you imbecile. I have read the Taylor Report-have you? I have read the outcome of the second inquiry. Have You? Most of it has been put up on here but you're too stubborn/stupid to read it. I have also seen The Prime Minister, The South Yorkshire Chief of Police, The Sun, Irvine Patnick and dozens of others ALL saying Liverpool Fans were not to blame-S Yorkshire Police were. An unbelievable amount of evidence tampering trying to shift the blame away from an incompetent Chief Inspector and you still want to insist that Liverpool fans were to blame? You have the agenda-not me.

As for your magnanimous gesture of allowing me to discuss my allegiances via PM-well, thanks all the same, I have no desire to have any further discussions or debate with you. I will tell you that I have been an Albion fan since 1956 when I was taken to my first game by my father although what that has to do with you I have no idea.

 

[fattyjohn]

What's the difference between a cow and a tragedy? A scouser wouldn't know how to milk a cow.

Harsh, maybe, but the cap certainly fits with them at times.

by saying this don't you think your doing exactly the same as thatcher and syp,and tarring everyone with the same brush ?

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Scousers love the victim thing. I remember when I was at school in Birkenhead at the time of the Heysel disaster that they were quite happy to sing a song hilariously titled "squash em all " to the tune of "bless em all" which ended with the uproariously funny line "we won't be mastered by no eyetie bastards so we squashed em all to f*** all"

It wouldn't be so funny now I suspect.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Scousers love the victim thing. I remember when I was at school in Birkenhead at the time of the Heysel disaster that they were quite happy to sing a song hilariously titled "squash em all " to the tune of "bless em all" which ended with the uproariously funny line "we won't be mastered by no eyetie bastards so we squashed em all to f*** all"

It wouldn't be so funny now I suspect.

How does your anecdote even begin to support your assertion that 'Scousers love the victim thing'? More likely it supports a view that 'Scousers love the crime thing'.

 

[cyrilthesinik]

Of course I haven't read 400,000 pages you imbecile. I have read the Taylor Report-have you? I have read the outcome of the second inquiry. Have You? Most of it has been put up on here but you're too stubborn/stupid to read it. I have also seen The Prime Minister, The South Yorkshire Chief of Police, The Sun, Irvine Patnick and dozens of others ALL saying Liverpool Fans were not to blame-S Yorkshire Police were. An unbelievable amount of evidence tampering trying to shift the blame away from an incompetent Chief Inspector and you still want to insist that Liverpool fans were to blame? You have the agenda-not me.

As for your magnanimous gesture of allowing me to discuss my allegiances via PM-well, thanks all the same, I have no desire to have any further discussions or debate with you. I will tell you that I have been an Albion fan since 1956 when I was taken to my first game by my father although what that has to do with you I have no idea.

You like calling people names that don't agree with you don't you! By the way you've been ranting on I can't believe you haven't read the whole 400,000 pages! You go on like you have. We are blessed that we have such intelegence on this board to put us in our place when we dare to have a mind of our own!

 

[cyrilthesinik]

Of course I haven't read 400,000 pages you imbecile. I have read the Taylor Report-have you? I have read the outcome of the second inquiry. Have You? Most of it has been put up on here but you're too stubborn/stupid to read it. I have also seen The Prime Minister, The South Yorkshire Chief of Police, The Sun, Irvine Patnick and dozens of others ALL saying Liverpool Fans were not to blame-S Yorkshire Police were. An unbelievable amount of evidence tampering trying to shift the blame away from an incompetent Chief Inspector and you still want to insist that Liverpool fans were to blame? You have the agenda-not me.

As for your magnanimous gesture of allowing me to discuss my allegiances via PM-well, thanks all the same, I have no desire to have any further discussions or debate with you. I will tell you that I have been an Albion fan since 1956 when I was taken to my first game by my father although what that has to do with you I have no idea.

You like calling people names that don't agree with you don't you! By the way you've been ranting on I can't believe you haven't read the whole 400,000 pages! You go on like you have. We are blessed that we have such intelegence on this board to put us in our place when we dare to have a mind of our own!

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

How does your anecdote even begin to support your assertion that 'Scousers love the victim thing'? More likely it supports a view that 'Scousers love the crime thing'.

I could have gone on to say that it was the same cheeky scouse wags who were Happy to revel in the misery of Italian families post Heysel who were the first to cry foul post Hillsborough...but did I really need to point that out?

What happened at Hillsborough was tragic and a huge waste of innocent life but surely you take my point? They caused one tragedy and were the victims of another...the difference is the difference.

 

[Bwian]

You like calling people names that don't agree with you don't you! By the way you've been ranting on I can't believe you haven't read the whole 400,000 pages! You go on like you have. We are blessed that we have such intelegence on this board to put us in our place when we dare to have a mind of our own!

Not ranting-merely trying to show those who haven't bothered to research what actually happened that until they come from an informed viewpoint their views are meaningless. You may well fall into that category-only you will know that. You come back with evidence that Lord Justice and the second inquiry missed then you'll have everybody's attention.

It's 'intelligence' by the way.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

I could have gone on to say that it was the same cheeky scouse wags who were Happy to revel in the misery of Italian families post Heysel who were the first to cry foul post Hillsborough...but did I really need to point that out?

What happened at Hillsborough was tragic and a huge waste of innocent life but surely you take my point? They caused one tragedy and were the victims of another...the difference is the difference.

I think your anecdote better supports a charge of hypocrisy on the part of Liverpool fans rather than a victim complex.

 

[DTES]

Back on topic...

What a bloody magnificent display by Everton tonight! Two mascots, one in blue (with 9 on the back) and one in red (with 6 on the back) walk out together. Then the names of the 96 displayed on the screen while "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother" plays over the sound system.

Absolutely chuffing brilliant. THAT is what rivalry is about - desire to thrash each other on the field, but together off it, particularly in adversity.

Bit like the Olympics too, I suppose, I only ever saw mutual respect there even between rivals.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Back on topic...

What a bloody magnificent display by Everton tonight! Two mascots, one in blue (with 9 on the back) and one in red (with 6 on the back) walk out together. Then the names of the 96 displayed on the screen while "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother" plays over the sound system.

Absolutely chuffing brilliant. THAT is what rivalry is about - desire to thrash each other on the field, but together off it, particularly in adversity.

Bit like the Olympics too, I suppose, I only ever saw mutual respect there even between rivals.

Absolutely this.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Of course I haven't read 400,000 pages you imbecile. I have read the Taylor Report-have you? I have read the outcome of the second inquiry. Have You? Most of it has been put up on here but you're too stubborn/stupid to read it. I have also seen The Prime Minister, The South Yorkshire Chief of Police, The Sun, Irvine Patnick and dozens of others ALL saying Liverpool Fans were not to blame-S Yorkshire Police were. An unbelievable amount of evidence tampering trying to shift the blame away from an incompetent Chief Inspector and you still want to insist that Liverpool fans were to blame? You have the agenda-not me.

As for your magnanimous gesture of allowing me to discuss my allegiances via PM-well, thanks all the same, I have no desire to have any further discussions or debate with you. I will tell you that I have been an Albion fan since 1956 when I was taken to my first game by my father although what that has to do with you I have no idea.

Having read a few sections of the Taylor report last night it's not fair to just blame South Yorkshire police. The Taylor report blames a number of factors which all added together at the right time caused the perfect storm.

Since that MP started raising the issue in parliament it has now become a source of political gain to suggest that there is absolutely no culpability from any supporter. These statements are about as reliable source of information as the doctored statements of the police 20 years ago - they all have an ulterior motive in saying what they say.

You will never ever convince me that the people outside who caused the police to panick and open the gate, causing the 1000s in front of them to be crushed, shouldn't take some portion of the blame even if it's 1 or 2% as opposed to the 98% for the people who should've been controling them. Had they all patiently stood in the queue then it wouldn't have happened, but you're not allowed to suggest that because of the emotion involved. Remove any emotion and it seems pretty obvious to me.

I understand the concept of crowd mentality etc and that human nature needs to be taken into account. There was a really good post earlier in the thread by [MENTION=17931]RowleyBirkinQ.C(deceased)[/MENTION] on the subject of crowd control which I almost totally agree with. I still think there will be a few people who were outside at the time that would've spent the last 20 years feeling pretty guilty.

 

[cyrilthesinik]

Not ranting-merely trying to show those who haven't bothered to research what actually happened that until they come from an informed viewpoint their views are meaningless. You may well fall into that category-only you will know that. You come back with evidence that Lord Justice and the second inquiry missed then you'll have everybody's attention.

It's 'intelligence' by the way.

O.k i will give you the spelling thing, thanks for that You're obviously very clever but can't you see that not everyone thinks it was 100% the police, they played their part in what went wrong that day and so did some fans...not the ones that sadly died..but some did.

 

[BadFish]

I could have gone on to say that it was the same cheeky scouse wags who were Happy to revel in the misery of Italian families post Heysel who were the first to cry foul post Hillsborough...but did I really need to point that out?

What happened at Hillsborough was tragic and a huge waste of innocent life but surely you take my point? They caused one tragedy and were the victims of another...the difference is the difference.

Do you know they were the same people or are you basing your notion on the fact that they live in the same city.

 

[DTES]

O.k i will give you the spelling thing, thanks for that You're obviously very clever but can't you see that not everyone thinks it was 100% the police, they played their part in what went wrong that day and so did some fans...not the ones that sadly died..but some did.

Genuine question - why do you think the review cleared the fans of all blame if that's true? As David Cameron said 'This report is black and white; the fans are not to blame'.

Given what had preceded the report, surely if there was ANY chance that the fans could be blamed, they'd have grabbed it with both hands and apportioned some blame on them in the report?

 

[BadFish]

Having read a few sections of the Taylor report last night it's not fair to just blame South Yorkshire police. The Taylor report blames a number of factors which all added together at the right time caused the perfect storm.

Since that MP started raising the issue in parliament it has now become a source of political gain to suggest that there is absolutely no culpability from any supporter. These statements are about as reliable source of information as the doctored statements of the police 20 years ago - they all have an ulterior motive in saying what they say.

You will never ever convince me that the people outside who caused the police to panick and open the gate, causing the 1000s in front of them to be crushed, shouldn't take some portion of the blame even if it's 1 or 2% as opposed to the 98% for the people who should've been controling them. Had they all patiently stood in the queue then it wouldn't have happened, but you're not allowed to suggest that because of the emotion involved. Remove any emotion and it seems pretty obvious to me.

I understand the concept of crowd mentality etc and that human nature needs to be taken into account. There was a really good post earlier in the thread by [MENTION=17931]RowleyBirkinQ.C(deceased)[/MENTION] on the subject of crowd control which I almost totally agree with. I still think there will be a few people who were outside at the time that would've spent the last 20 years feeling pretty guilty.

I suspect there are many many people who feel guilty for what happened that day. The point is that in a group mentality at a football match pushing and shoving is part and parcel of the experience, I don't suppose any of them had the slightest idea of the carnage their pushing was causing down the front in the cage.

 

[BadFish]

Genuine question - why do you think the review cleared the fans of all blame if that's true? As David Cameron said 'This report is black and white; the fans are not to blame'.

Given what had preceded the report, surely if there was ANY chance that the fans could be blamed, they'd have grabbed it with both hands and apportioned some blame on them in the report?

This - I find it difficult to understand how anyone can still come to the conclusion that the fans were to blame. It certainly makes you realise and respect what the families have gone through and the ignorance they have been fighting against over the last 23 years.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I think your anecdote better supports a charge of hypocrisy on the part of Liverpool fans rather than a victim complex.

I take a more holistic view. Having grown up there I can think of several instances of victimhood from Jamie Bulger through Toxteth Hillsborogh and beyond. It goes right back to the Thatcher years and the socialists of Derek Hatton and the dead going unburied because Liverpool wanted to be treated as a special case...blah f***ing blah.

It's a city that wears its heart on its sleeve and wants sympathy and exoneration in equal measure. Complex and contrary.

 

[Billy the Fish]

This - I find it difficult to understand how anyone can still come to the conclusion that the fans were to blame. It certainly makes you realise and respect what the families have gone through and the ignorance they have been fighting against over the last 23 years.

I don't think there's anyone trying to argue that the fans were to blame. I just find it annoying that we're not allowed to acknowledge that some of those fans outside played their part in a chain reaction of events that lead up to the disaster, even if it's a tiny proportion compared to the police incompetence and badly designed stadium (which it is) it still exists.

All I want is both sides to come out with a bit of balance to their opinion, in the last 20 years we've gone from the SYP trying to make out that the Liverpool fans were rampaging animals to the jf96 campaign suggesting they were all as docile as hindu cows and the nasty police forced them to walk to their deaths. In both cases the mass media and politicians of the time backed the idea for their own gain.

To me it's all a bit hypocritical.