[Football] All 40 Elite football referees are white

[Springal]

After the recent AFCON tournament I wonder there’s a provincial football team’s chat site in Burkina Faso where the lack of white officials is being discussed?

Conspiracy theories will no doubt abound, and the blame will be firmly laid at the door of the “old chiefs in loin cloths” that still run the game over there.

What a game.

There were white officials at AFCON. [emoji2375]

In fact one refereed the final [emoji23]

 

[Springal]

Exactly. If the top 40 referees in the country are white, then so be it. If the top 40 referees are black, so be it. This crazy focus on the colour of people's skin has got to stop.

You’re missing the point entirely. Statistically if fair it’s almost impossible to have had such a low rate of BAME officials in the top flight so it’s right we look at why.

One reason I am sure is a factor is how promotion works at lower levels - you probably get assessed once or twice a year by a retired grass roots ref - who’s probably in his 60s - 70s and it’s not impossible there are some inherent prejudices in this generation. I know when i played and we had a Sikh in our team that at that time some referees in sussex definitely treated / spoke to him differently to others. Nothing outrageous or obviously racist but looking back there was a certain behaviour from some refs. Those same ones are probably knowing deciding promotions for todays grass root refs.

Also county FAs and leagues used to be particularly bad at dealing with stuff that happened in games. I’m aware of racist incidents where teams or players were barely punished, I myself was assaulted at grass roots football and intimidated afterwards - put the report in as it happened with witnesses and both the club and player pretty much got away with it. I don’t imagine many are capable of dealing with racism incidents either.

Sussex FA has improved, I was around when a certain female ref was being fast tracked - actually she was very good and extremely dedicated and as a result now she’s in the WSL as a referee and had some grandstand games. I think she’s even involved in development at the sussex FA now. Likewise on the board is a South Asian chap who regularly played around Brighton and went on to referee.

But you can guarantee over the last 20 years there will be areas of the country or particular FAs that will be not have been welcoming to young BAME refs. You only need to look at behaviours around the womens game and how that’s changed and the improvements seen to know it’s an issue.

Not BAME but women specific - Sian Massey speaks well about how she was treated differently to men and how much harder she had to work to be taken seriously at grass roots level

 

[portlock seagull]

Come on, those are hardly the same. If a white person wanted to become a professional curry chef, there wouldn't be a number of barriers along the way that were purely to do with the colour of their skin. You can't imagine many situations where a white person might be considering taking it up as a profession but give up in the fear of abuse they might get from customers or other kitchen staff

Actually I think you’ll find (from my time spent in Indian) that Indians have just as many religious, sexist, racist and classist ‘problems’ as here. Perhaps more if I’m allowed to say that. Take the caste system. But yes, you’re right, it’s only white people who hold prejudices and we must do everything we can to eradicate especially the white privileged gammon, sexist, middle class, male and most of all ENGLISH types who have caused every plague, war, famine and now climate change the world has ever seen. Including the lack of BAME refs which is THE most serious problem today. Ukraine can wait.

 

[Albion my Albion]

Yeah, employing people because of the colour of their skin has always worked well in the past hasn’t it. Why change a winning formula ?

I didn't say that. I said it takes an effort whether conscious or not for one group to completely dominate 100% a line of employment. No one ethnicity should ever completely control an occupation if chosen fairly. It would be a lot easier for the dominate ethnicity to see and understand it if a minority ethnicity were 100% dominant.

 

[Stato]

A lot of the comments in this thread seem to be made by people who didn't bother to read the article. This is not liberals looking for quotas, this is not people from ethnic minorities not wanting to go into refereeing, this is not the Guardian looking for a race based story. It's a report of a 53 page report compiled by a BAME Referees Support Group that looks at lack of progression and even details directly racist comments made by some of the observers responsible for marking referees that want to be considered for higher levels:

"According to the report, one observer is alleged to have told a referee: “You lot can all run fast, but that’s all you are good for.” Another is claimed to have said: “If you want to progress, you need to cut your dreadlocks.” Another made an offensive comment about throwing a banana."!!!

This is not the culture wars. This is not a call for positive discrimination. It is saying that people are not being given equal opportunity because of the prejudice of some in positions of power. Former referee Reuben Simon is quoted as saying

“There are lots of black referees at the grassroots level, but they are not getting through the system. It’s possible that every single black referee is rubbish, but if that’s absurd, what’s the other conclusion? They are being blocked because of racial bias.

“Not every observer is racially biased, but the margins are so small the higher you go up the system that if just one person marks you down it’s game over.”

Simon said he told a senior FA official in 2011 that regular and transparent audits of observers, including the use of “ghost observers” to shadow official assessors, would tackle the issue of racism and unconscious bias. The proposal was not taken up."

I suspect that none of the people commenting here, think that the kind of comments or discrimination reported are acceptable and this shouldn't become a conversation about anything other than ways to stop it.

It's important for us all to understand that when there is talk of institutional prejudice, it is not an accusation that everyone involved with an institution is prejudiced. It means that not enough is being done by an organisation to consider whether the accepted status quo is giving particular disadvantage to anyone who wants to succeed within it. In this case, it would seem pretty clear that the FA has a lot of work to do.

 

[McTavish]

Actually I think you’ll find (from my time spent in Indian) that Indians have just as many religious, sexist, racist and classist ‘problems’ as here. Perhaps more if I’m allowed to say that. Take the caste system. But yes, you’re right, it’s only white people who hold prejudices and we must do everything we can to eradicate especially the white privileged gammon, sexist, middle class, male and most of all ENGLISH types who have caused every plague, war, famine and now climate change the world has ever seen. Including the lack of BAME refs which is THE most serious problem today. Ukraine can wait.

Whataboutery, a strawman argument and extreme hyperbole in such a short space. Well done!

I take it you won't be posting about anything apart from Ukraine until that is sorted out?

 

[portlock seagull]

Whataboutery, a strawman argument and extreme hyperbole in such a short space. Well done!

I take it you won't be posting about anything apart from Ukraine until that is sorted out?

Precisely. You prove my point. It starts with whatabout and ends with whatabout. So what’sthepoint? Case closed. Next up - Bears shit in woods: Today, a major university study confirmed long held suspicions that…

 

[Wardy's twin]

A lot of the comments in this thread seem to be made by people who didn't bother to read the article. This is not liberals looking for quotas, this is not people from ethnic minorities not wanting to go into refereeing, this is not the Guardian looking for a race based story. It's a report of a 53 page report compiled by a BAME Referees Support Group that looks at lack of progression and even details directly racist comments made by some of the observers responsible for marking referees that want to be considered for higher levels:

"According to the report, one observer is alleged to have told a referee: “You lot can all run fast, but that’s all you are good for.” Another is claimed to have said: “If you want to progress, you need to cut your dreadlocks.” Another made an offensive comment about throwing a banana."!!!

This is not the culture wars. This is not a call for positive discrimination. It is saying that people are not being given equal opportunity because of the prejudice of some in positions of power. Former referee Reuben Simon is quoted as saying

“There are lots of black referees at the grassroots level, but they are not getting through the system. It’s possible that every single black referee is rubbish, but if that’s absurd, what’s the other conclusion? They are being blocked because of racial bias.

“Not every observer is racially biased, but the margins are so small the higher you go up the system that if just one person marks you down it’s game over.”

Simon said he told a senior FA official in 2011 that regular and transparent audits of observers, including the use of “ghost observers” to shadow official assessors, would tackle the issue of racism and unconscious bias. The proposal was not taken up."

I suspect that none of the people commenting here, think that the kind of comments or discrimination reported are acceptable and this shouldn't become a conversation about anything other than ways to stop it.

It's important for us all to understand that when there is talk of institutional prejudice, it is not an accusation that everyone involved with an institution is prejudiced. It means that not enough is being done by an organisation to consider whether the accepted status quo is giving particular disadvantage to anyone who wants to succeed within it. In this case, it would seem pretty clear that the FA has a lot of work to do.

I]"According to the report, one observer is alleged to have told a referee: “You lot can all run fast, but that’s all you are good for.” Another is claimed to have said: “If you want to progress, you need to cut your dreadlocks.” Another made an offensive comment about throwing a banana."[/I]!!!

I know its difficult to prove (but not impossible) did the report say whether any action was taken against the unnamed Observers if not then that is part of the problem and just reporting it as hearsay does nothing to improve the situation as it polarises the conversation around opinion rather facts as shown in this NSC thread.

 

[Stato]

I know its difficult to prove (but not impossible) did the report say whether any action was taken against the unnamed Observers if not then that is part of the problem and just reporting it as hearsay does nothing to improve the situation as it polarises the conversation around opinion rather facts as shown in this NSC thread.

The article says that the report was submitted to the FA last summer, but I could find no evidence of it being published, or of the FA responding to any of the findings. I did find articles from the 'i' saying that a lot of people are upset that the FA doesn't plan to share the findings of the independent report into allegations about the conduct of, soon to retire, referees chief David Elleray: https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/...-historic-conduct-1463129?ico=related_stories.

I'd suggest that at best this looks like a worrying lack of the kind of transparent governance and clear accountability that I'd consider to be essential in running modern institutions. None of it seems to inspire confidence that the organisation is determined to live the values it espouses.

 

[Roadrunner]

https://www.sussexfa.com/news/2021/sep/17/match-official-of-the-year-tazlim-alli

Fully expect this lad to be fast-tracked to the top. Really nice guy, was a school mate of my daughters and came to our house a few times. Think I remember him being a Man Utd fan as well, so that can only count in his favour

 

[Seagull58]

https://www.sussexfa.com/news/2021/sep/17/match-official-of-the-year-tazlim-alli

Fully expect this lad to be fast-tracked to the top. Really nice guy, was a school mate of my daughters and came to our house a few times. Think I remember him being a Man Utd fan as well, so that can only count in his favour

He's not very black though, is he?

 

[Roadrunner]

He's not very black though, is he?

https://www.sussexfa.com/news/2020/sep/18/referee-spotlight-tazlim-alli

"Whilst he has his feet firmly on the ground, Taz isn’t shy with his aspirations of wanting to officiate on the Premier League stating it as his “dream to officiate on the best league in the world, the Premier League”.

What’s more, as a Black Asian Minority Ethnic (BAME) representative in football, he wants to proudly represent the community within football and believes that BAME representation at a grassroots level is improving all the time: “It would be absolutely incredible to be a BAME representative at the highest level. Whilst there isn’t a crazy amount at the highest level, I see a lot at grassroots and semi-professional level so hopefully that will change in the near future and there will be many more before me that get there!”

 

[taz]

What about dwarfs never see a dwarf officiating a top division game, all at the FA are taller people and are institutionally discriminatory against dwarfs, something needs to change!

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

What about dwarfs never see a dwarf officiating a top division game, all at the FA are taller people and are institutionally discriminatory against dwarfs, something needs to change!

Well they are going to make Snow White without a Snow White and no Dwarves if that helps?

 

[Seagull27]

Actually I think you’ll find (from my time spent in Indian) that Indians have just as many religious, sexist, racist and classist ‘problems’ as here. Perhaps more if I’m allowed to say that. Take the caste system. But yes, you’re right, it’s only white people who hold prejudices and we must do everything we can to eradicate especially the white privileged gammon, sexist, middle class, male and most of all ENGLISH types who have caused every plague, war, famine and now climate change the world has ever seen. Including the lack of BAME refs which is THE most serious problem today. Ukraine can wait.

I'm sure India does have plenty of problems with racism, but we're talking about the UK. If you wanted to open an Indian-style restaurant as a white person in the UK you could do so quite easily. In fact there are a fair few I can name where I live in Bristol that have done just that, and I doubt they have received racist abuse

 

[Stato]

What about dwarfs never see a dwarf officiating a top division game, all at the FA are taller people and are institutionally discriminatory against dwarfs, something needs to change!

Who could ever get tired of this trope eh? Always inspired and hilarious. Could you do us some politically correct fairytale parodies too?