Absolutely - but that still doesn't explain how some of the best players in the game, like Greaves, Best and Worthington thrived at the top by doing all the wrong things. and frequently dodging the right things when they could!
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Absolutely - but that still doesn't explain how some of the best players in the game, like Greaves, Best and Worthington thrived at the top by doing all the wrong things. and frequently dodging the right things when they could!
Greg Bobkin
Silver Seagull
- May 22, 2012
- 16,044
I guess that's where the 'gambling' bit comes into it. Maybe players will run down their contract at the Albion, but I'd like to think it would rarely – if ever – come to that. Supposing that was the case with Bissouma, TB and co probably took the view (like many of us on here), that it's better to cash in now (and still make a decent profit) than to lose him for nothing next season.
The only problem might come if a player 'promises' to sign an extension and then doesn't. But then I can't see the club being naive enough to let that happen.
Re: natural ability, I coach kids from the age of 4 - 9 and I've got a son in the academy system so I watch very talented kids playing football nearly every day plus I went through that system as well myself so I do feel in a good position to be able to judge this and personally, I agree with Swansman.
At 4, they're basically all at a very similar level, as they get older, the ones who play all the time, train more and are more committed, are always the ones who kick on and break through into the academies. To me, it's not a natural ability, it's about mentality and having the strength and hunger to want it to an incredible level and to be able to deal with everything that is thrown at them and keep going. It is incredibly hard to become a professional footballer and the ones who want it more and deal with the set backs better are the ones who make it. The 'natural ability' is just ingrained in them with all the work they do at a young age, they're not born with it.
At 4, they're basically all at a very similar level, as they get older, the ones who play all the time, train more and are more committed, are always the ones who kick on and break through into the academies. To me, it's not a natural ability, it's about mentality and having the strength and hunger to want it to an incredible level and to be able to deal with everything that is thrown at them and keep going. It is incredibly hard to become a professional footballer and the ones who want it more and deal with the set backs better are the ones who make it. The 'natural ability' is just ingrained in them with all the work they do at a young age, they're not born with it.
Not Andy Naylor
Well-known member
I agree that playing a lot when young is a key factor - all the stories about players such as Charlton and Rooney playing every hour they could as kids on cobbled streets etc suggest that that's right - but don't you allow for a certain percentage that's down to natural ability and physical co-ordination that some have and others just don't?
And some people have a different mental appreciation of what's going on - having a picture of the game, as some say. I've played with people who just seem to see the game on a different level, almost as if it's all slowed down in their minds. I'll never have that if I play forever. Similarly Jimmy Greaves was always so cool and calm in front of goal when others panic and snatch at chances. Isn't that innate? Glenn Murray had that too although not to the same ridiculous extent.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
Think I agree with you, but I'll just add to this debate by saying that I'm not fond of binaries which structure most of our thinking, and would say that there are (at least) three elements to consider:
-- natural ability which at times can be related to physique (see, for instance, Usain Bolt)
-- application: the level of effort and training put in (eg Beckham's free kicks)
-- intelligence: this is the underrated element and I think you're alluding to it in terms of Lineker, and I'd chuck in Veltman who isn't the most 'naturally' brilliant footballer, but ekes out the most of it through being clever: he was asked what his best attribute is and responded, 'I'm smart'.
You do realise that mentality is a natural ability, right? It defines whether the youngster is trainable.
The art of teaching/coaching is to find ways to show the trainee how to maximise attainment from whatever level of potential (innate ability).
I'm lucky in that I teach (in the main) elite students (not exclusively because we have a chunk of overseas high fee-paying students who ar not intellectually or culturally equipped to deal with anything other than rote learning, but that's another story).
This means that all I need to do is devise a value-adding programme (content aligned to learning outcomes) and a range of different ways to entice the student into the learning/training zone. We have to document all this stuff, now, too (I'm on our 'School' education quality committee too so I get to peer review training programmes - an eye-opener).
I would imagine that elite level football coaching is run along the same lines, with the added component of highly individualised training and lifestyle management, from exercise to diet and sleep, and mental strengthening along with position-specific tactics and technique training. Not a place for the traditional 'thick' footballer, I suspect....
Yes, of course the ones with determination who work hard, practice, etc., will do better than the others. Most of them still won't become PL footballers - in fact only a few will become professional footballers at all.
And of course, the ones that do practice more and show dedication are probably the ones who feel they have the ability, and enjoy doing it. The others do not fail because they can't be bothered, but more likely because they realise, albeit subconsciously, that they do not have natural skills like balance, co-ordination and timing to be able to develop as footballers, even with practice and training, and that their skills lie elsewhere.
Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world. Doubtless there are others out there (but not many) who could run as fast if they applied the same amount of dedication and training - but the fact remains that 99% of us could never, and never could have, run a sub 10 second 100 metres, not with all the practice and training in the world.
Exactly. Training, coaching - and for that matter practice - are all about adding value, enhancing and ultimately maximising what is already there. It is not some sort of necromancy, producing something for nothing.
At the end of the day, if you actually succeed in polishing a turd, the best you can possibly hope to achieve is a very shiny turd - but still a turd. Unfortunately, in terms of becoming PL footballers - or indeed elite athletes of any kind - most of us are turds. Speaking as a football mad kid who desperately wanted to be a good footballer, who did everything asked of him in training, and more, who practiced endlessly, worked for hours to improve the left foot, joined in a game of football whenever he had the chance - and thought about tactics probably more than most teenage kids in the 1960s - but still had difficulty keeping a place in the school second eleven!
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Badger Boy
Mr Badger
- Jan 28, 2016
- 3,658
Good debate, although with some nastiness thrown in which isn't required.
Personally, I think that everybody is a clean slate. Nothing is innate but everyone's brain will naturally gravitate toward different things. I'm sure there's a reason why Messi's brain makes the immediate connections it does and why he was immediately to play the game at a high standard (if the book I read about him, not officially comissioned, is even slightly right). I believe that if you get a 4/5 year old child and were able to connect with them and coach them then they could do anything to a high standard but there will be kids who, even by that time, haven't developed focus or haven't got the innate ability to follow what you're telling them.
I believe everyone has the potential to do anything at all, but all the stars need to align. It can never be scientifically proven but that's my belief. I respect the others who disagree and they can generally point to more data, etc.
Personally, I think that everybody is a clean slate. Nothing is innate but everyone's brain will naturally gravitate toward different things. I'm sure there's a reason why Messi's brain makes the immediate connections it does and why he was immediately to play the game at a high standard (if the book I read about him, not officially comissioned, is even slightly right). I believe that if you get a 4/5 year old child and were able to connect with them and coach them then they could do anything to a high standard but there will be kids who, even by that time, haven't developed focus or haven't got the innate ability to follow what you're telling them.
I believe everyone has the potential to do anything at all, but all the stars need to align. It can never be scientifically proven but that's my belief. I respect the others who disagree and they can generally point to more data, etc.
I agree with everything you say and that's why I highlighted mentality. If they don't have the right mentality and resilience, they've not got a chance in the first place regardless of being able to make the right run or thread the ball through a needle etc. I would say the ability to be trained and then having the right amount of hunger, desire and resilience to make it to the top are different things though.
I'm referring to the natural football ability that gets talked about. Gary Lineker wasn't a better finisher than anyone else at age three/four. Zidane wasn't a better passer or dribbler at three/four than anyone else. KDB didn't have a better appreciation of space on a football pitch at three/four than anyone else. They learn these things through experience and playing the game - the Veltman example above is another. He's smart, he's taken on board his experience of playing and know what to do/where to be etc, he wasn't born with that.
There are a combination of things that then help them with these things - their mentality as already stated, their desire and ability to be able to play football as much as possible, the people they're playing with and then, as Swansman points out, the coaches and facilities around them so a lot of it will come down to luck and timing too.
It's one of those things that will never be proven and I like the debate as I have a passion for developing and coaching kids, it is magical to see them improving as time goes on. As Machiavelli rightly says, like most things, it's probably not a binary thing but I just personally don't believe anyone was born with a better football brain or natural football ability than anyone else.
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Perhaps not the tots.
But not much older you can definitely see child A with the ability to kick a ball 'properly'.
(Something I can't do having booted balls around parks for the best part of 50 years)
If anything they stand out even more at that age.
As we're saying what happens after that is down to a whole series of different influences.
Garry Nelson's Left Foot
Well-known member
1) I love Ally Mac. I think he's great and hope he signs a new deal.
2) This thread has taken a turn for the better and has gone into a really good debate. My experience tells me that natural ability does exist as does the need to play, play,play some more and work all day every day to get better(which of course requires a certain mental characteristic). It's really just a question of what the percentages are.
That natural ability exists doesn't mean that the person with the most of it will inevitably become a professional or the best player. That's where the hard work and dedication come in. Many, many players will happily say that they weren't the best player in their academy/age group growing up but they've gone on to have a really good career while the player with greater ability drifted out of the game.
2) This thread has taken a turn for the better and has gone into a really good debate. My experience tells me that natural ability does exist as does the need to play, play,play some more and work all day every day to get better(which of course requires a certain mental characteristic). It's really just a question of what the percentages are.
That natural ability exists doesn't mean that the person with the most of it will inevitably become a professional or the best player. That's where the hard work and dedication come in. Many, many players will happily say that they weren't the best player in their academy/age group growing up but they've gone on to have a really good career while the player with greater ability drifted out of the game.
warmleyseagull
Well-known member
...
Pretty impressive getting a thumbs up for that!
…partly because they were doing it at a time when natural ability wasn’t being supplemented by the same level of coaching, training, fitness, nutrition, load management, tactics etc that players now have so the gap between those with exceptional natural talent and the rest was higher than it is now allowing them to shine. A George Best-type genius with the ball now, who spent much of his non-playing time drinking, clubbing, smoking and shagging would never make it in the professional game.
Esp if he had to wear the same boots best did!
They look like they were specifically designed to stop you kicking a ball.
warmleyseagull
Well-known member
Indeed. I replied and posted to your post, then realised talking bollocks so tried to delete; couldn't work out how, so ended with 3 dots!
Green Cross Code Man
Wunt be druv
Grealish?