[Albion] Abdallah Sima

[GT49er]

I don’t think we’ve invested the Ben White money full stop. We tried to sign Nunez/Gonzalez and it didn’t happen. I suspect most has been allocated to cover the (hopefully one off) Covid hit. But the model is clearly to continue to identify and develop young players, sell the ones that develop for a profit, and invest in more, slowly raising the bar over time (as opposed to spunking a large amount on ‘oven ready’ players). To make that work, we need to see more ‘Ben Whites’ emerging amongst our young players. Sima I have high hopes for but it’s a shame his season has been injury hit, likewise Caicedo. Mitoma and Sarmiento look encouraging. Some others, less so, but that will be the nature of this model you’d expect. Just need a few of the bets to come off.

The 'Covid hit' isn't going to be a one-off, I'm afraid - ot's still on-going. For instance, we have seven players out on loan in the Championship. Some of those may be developing for our first team, others will be in the shop window for a move to the Championship - at a profit, which is to pay for the development squad and make us sustainable. Unfortunately, because of Covid, Championshpi clubs have got f*** all money, so whereas in the past we might have got a few million for players we had developed to a good Championship level, that isn't likely to happen now.
Take Gyokeres, for example - we sold him to Coventry for barely more than we paid for him. After wages and the overhead costs we probably made a slight loss on him over-all. He won't be the first like that. Clarke and Molumby, for example, could go the same way. I don't think we got anything for Sanders, and likely won't for Walton either.
We might have to be a lot more careful with this develop and profit model in the future.

 

[andy1980]

The 'Covid hit' isn't going to be a one-off, I'm afraid - ot's still on-going. For instance, we have seven players out on loan in the Championship. Some of those may be developing for our first team, others will be in the shop window for a move to the Championship - at a profit, which is to pay for the development squad and make us sustainable. Unfortunately, because of Covid, Championshpi clubs have got f*** all money, so whereas in the past we might have got a few million for players we had developed to a good Championship level, that isn't likely to happen now.
Take Gyokeres, for example - we sold him to Coventry for barely more than we paid for him. After wages and the overhead costs we probably made a slight loss on him over-all. He won't be the first like that. Clarke and Molumby, for example, could go the same way. I don't think we got anything for Sanders, and likely won't for Walton either.
We might have to be a lot more careful with this develop and profit model in the future.

I think I saw that we paid £900,000 for Gykores Sold him to Coventry for £1m by the time you add the loan fees we got from St Pauli, Swansea, and Coventry I think we would have covered his costs to us. Clarke we would have to sell in the summer to not make a loss but considering Deby had him for 2 seasons and West Brom have him this season Im sure his wages would have been covered. Molumby shouldn't be mentioned in this respect I'm sure the loan fees paid by Millwall and Preston covered what we paid for him and from the reports I have read West Brom have paid a loan fee of £800,000 which should cover any wages we paid, and if they want him they have agreed to pay £2.2m so it worked. Sanders was a local lad, and I'm sure Waltons 8 loan fees would cover what we paid Plymouth for him. If you look at others like Dreyer, and Norman then I think we marginally made a profit once you throw in loan fees, but then made big profit on Mateju and if the loan to buy with Karbownik comes of.

There are obviously others but if the loan to buys comes of then I don't think we have done badly and once you throw in the players who have gone out on loan then made it into our first team like White, Alzate, and Sanchez I think it is working, just not on a Chelsea scale.

 

[GT49er]

I think I saw that we paid £900,000 for Gykores Sold him to Coventry for £1m by the time you add the loan fees we got from St Pauli, Swansea, and Coventry I think we would have covered his costs to us. Clarke we would have to sell in the summer to not make a loss but considering Deby had him for 2 seasons and West Brom have him this season Im sure his wages would have been covered. Molumby shouldn't be mentioned in this respect I'm sure the loan fees paid by Millwall and Preston covered what we paid for him and from the reports I have read West Brom have paid a loan fee of £800,000 which should cover any wages we paid, and if they want him they have agreed to pay £2.2m so it worked. Sanders was a local lad, and I'm sure Waltons 8 loan fees would cover what we paid Plymouth for him. If you look at others like Dreyer, and Norman then I think we marginally made a profit once you throw in loan fees, but then made big profit on Mateju and if the loan to buy with Karbownik comes of.

There are obviously others but if the loan to buys comes of then I don't think we have done badly and once you throw in the players who have gone out on loan then made it into our first team like White, Alzate, and Sanchez I think it is working, just not on a Chelsea scale.

We'll never know the figures, of course - but I think you are over-estimating the anount of revenue we get for loan players. If Championship clubs are skint, lower leagues and most foreign leagues are even more skint. After all, we are using them to develop our players, so in many ways it is them doing us a favour - imagine the conversation .......

"Hello, Brighton and Hove Albion here - we've got a young player here, not good enough for our first team - not yet anyway - but he needs some regular game time to get experience of first team football. Can you find him a place in your team?"
Lower league team: "Yes, I think we could do that."
Brighton: "Good, thank you. That'll cost you £500K for the loan fee, and we'll need to discuss how much of his wages you'll be paying."
Lower league team: "F*ck off."

Yes, sometimes the loanee will improve the team he goes to for a season - but will also probably make mistakes as he learns his trade. Of course, we probably have been getting money in from the likes of St.Pauli, USG, Hull City, St Johnstone, Rochdale and Walsall - but not the hundreds - or even tens - of thousands you seem to believe. The model we are using was developed pre-Covid - it will almost certainly have to be tweeked, especially as we are now spending £miliions to buy players to send out on loan!
Not to mention forking out seven figure sums to recall players from loans early!

 

[southstandandy]

I don’t think we’ve invested the Ben White money full stop. We tried to sign Nunez/Gonzalez and it didn’t happen. I suspect most has been allocated to cover the (hopefully one off) Covid hit. But the model is clearly to continue to identify and develop young players, sell the ones that develop for a profit, and invest in more, slowly raising the bar over time (as opposed to spunking a large amount on ‘oven ready’ players). To make that work, we need to see more ‘Ben Whites’ emerging amongst our young players. Sima I have high hopes for but it’s a shame his season has been injury hit, likewise Caicedo. Mitoma and Sarmiento look encouraging. Some others, less so, but that will be the nature of this model you’d expect. Just need a few of the bets to come off.

Most of the £50m from the White sale has already been spent :

Sima £8m
Cucurella £18m
Scherpen £2.5m
Mwepu £18m

Add in their wages and I suspect that's more than £50m.

 

[Justice]

Most of the £50m from the White sale has already been spent :

Sima £8m
Cucurella £18m
Scherpen £2.5m
Mwepu £18m

Add in their wages and I suspect that's more than £50m.

Mitoma £4m

 

[Frankworthington]

Most of the £50m from the White sale has already been spent :

Sima £8m
Cucurella £18m
Scherpen £2.5m
Mwepu £18m

Add in their wages and I suspect that's more than £50m.

Do not confuse them with facts.But you missed out the japenese lad (Mitoma?)

But i fully agree with your post

 

[andy1980]

We'll never know the figures, of course - but I think you are over-estimating the anount of revenue we get for loan players. If Championship clubs are skint, lower leagues and most foreign leagues are even more skint. After all, we are using them to develop our players, so in many ways it is them doing us a favour - imagine the conversation .......

"Hello, Brighton and Hove Albion here - we've got a young player here, not good enough for our first team - not yet anyway - but he needs some regular game time to get experience of first team football. Can you find him a place in your team?"
Lower league team: "Yes, I think we could do that."
Brighton: "Good, thank you. That'll cost you £500K for the loan fee, and we'll need to discuss how much of his wages you'll be paying."
Lower league team: "F*ck off."

Yes, sometimes the loanee will improve the team he goes to for a season - but will also probably make mistakes as he learns his trade. Of course, we probably have been getting money in from the likes of St.Pauli, USG, Hull City, St Johnstone, Rochdale and Walsall - but not the hundreds - or even tens - of thousands you seem to believe. The model we are using was developed pre-Covid - it will almost certainly have to be tweeked, especially as we are now spending £miliions to buy players to send out on loan!
Not to mention forking out seven figure sums to recall players from loans early!

Darragh McAnthony said when he looks into loaning Brighton players they are usually expensive. As you said we will never know how much the actual prices are but if you assume that the Championship would pay £100,000 then Jayson Molumby going to Millwall and Preston nets us £150,000 (Preston was half a season I think), that £800,000 has actually been put out there and they are a newly relegated Premier League team. I think that £150,000 covers what we paid Railway Athletic for the then 16 year old. as I said I think the £800,000 would cover the wages we paid for him. With Gykores lets say St Pauli paid £50,000 Coventry and Swansea ended up paying the £100,000 between them for that season thats £150,000 to add to the £100,000 profit. I think £250,000 covers the wages of a youngster for 3 season especially when you consider the two championship sides most likely cover his wages and St Pauli say half his wages.. If you look at Walton, he had 2 seasons in the Championship so lets say thats £200,000, hes at Ipswich now and they have loads of money so lets say we told them £100,000 aswell so thats £300,000 he had another 2 short stints in League 1 so lets say £50,000 all together and one in league 2 so £20,000 so about £370,000 over 8 loan stints, I would say that covers what we paid for Walton.

 

[southstandandy]

Do not confuse them with facts.But you missed out the japenese lad (Mitoma?)

But i fully agree with your post

I agree - it's just the fact that as we failed to land an 'expensive' Striker in the summer people seem to think that we still have this £50m burning a hole in the clubs wallet.

With Mitoma the spending has exceeded £50m, so why do people still think we can afford to go out looking for a £20m plus striker? Factor in the fact that our losses for the season before last were roughly £70m, and I think we can can count ourselves lucky the club spent anything at all last summer.

 

[elwheelio]

I agree - it's just the fact that as we failed to land an 'expensive' Striker in the summer people seem to think that we still have this £50m burning a hole in the clubs wallet.

With Mitoma the spending has exceeded £50m, so why do people still think we can afford to go out looking for a £20m plus striker? Factor in the fact that our losses for the season before last were roughly £70m, and I think we can can count ourselves lucky the club spent anything at all last summer.

True. I also think this whole debate raises the question as to whether any PL club can ever run sustainably? If so, can they do more than just scrape survival each year? I can't think of (m)any examples.

 

[Frankworthington]

I agree - it's just the fact that as we failed to land an 'expensive' Striker in the summer people seem to think that we still have this £50m burning a hole in the clubs wallet.

With Mitoma the spending has exceeded £50m, so why do people still think we can afford to go out looking for a £20m plus striker? Factor in the fact that our losses for the season before last were roughly £70m, and I think we can can count ourselves lucky the club spent anything at all last summer.

Exactly

We just need b,w,2 to turn up and remind us that the failure to spend £20 m on a a striker will result in instant relegation,financial meltdown and a return to the stone age!

 

[Hugo Rune]

so why do people still think we can afford to go out looking for a £20m plus striker?

Because we need one. Because we got close to signing Nunez and Gonzalez but we couldn’t meet Benfica’s fee with the latter (guessing £30m+) whilst the former chose Italy & culture.

But also, we have a lot of saleable assets. Players will want to move on at some point if they feel they could play at a higher level, players like Bissouma, Lamptey and Trossard. That’s over £100m worth of players there. We’re probably going to get a large chunk of that in the future. Whilst the club have done amazingly well to balance the transfer budget (in/out) for the last two seasons, if they see the EXACT player they want, they’ll spend £20m+ without a doubt, even if they are not bringing in any transfer fees to balance that.

 

[nwgull]

Most of the £50m from the White sale has already been spent :

Sima £8m
Cucurella £18m
Scherpen £2.5m
Mwepu £18m

Add in their wages and I suspect that's more than £50m.

On the other hand, from summer onwards we’ve no longer been making amortisation losses on:

Izquierdo
Propper
Jahanbasch
Ryan

Can’t remember the reported fees of the above, but it possibly equals itself out before that 50m starts to be eaten into. I think that the money is there for further activity this Jan, but only if the right players become available. Last time we panic bought, we ended up with Locadia on a 4.5 year deal!

 

[Hugo Rune]

I think that the money is there for further activity this Jan, but only if the right players become available. Last time we panic bought, we ended up with Locadia on a 4.5 year deal!

This is the key bit. If it’s not the exact player we want, we’ll struggle on with Locadia, Connolly and probably Andone (now).

The days of panic buys are a thing of the past with so many back-up options available.

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

Not very exciting for us lot though is it? The whole point of going to football is to be entertained. I’m quite sure we would all of preferred BW playing for us this season and not for Arsenal. If we had invested a large chunk of the £50m into a position we desperately need strengthening in it would of been better I suppose.

I'm not so sure that l agree re Ben White you know. If he was still at the Albion then where would Shane Duffy be now? out on loan somewhere possibly, there certainly wouldn't be room for White, Duffy and Adam Webster in the side.

The £50m that Arsenal paid for him was great business, and potentially solved a problem for us in central defence in keeping two other great defenders happy too.

 

[Worried Man Blues]

I'm not so sure that l agree re Ben White you know. If he was still at the Albion then where would Shane Duffy be now? out on loan somewhere possibly, there certainly wouldn't be room for White, Duffy and Adam Webster in the side.

The £50m that Arsenal paid for him was great business, and potentially solved a problem for us in central defence in keeping two other great defenders happy too.

I also wonder what value Duffy is worth now compared to the beginning of this season.

 

[GT49er]

Darragh McAnthony said when he looks into loaning Brighton players they are usually expensive. As you said we will never know how much the actual prices are but if you assume that the Championship would pay £100,000 then Jayson Molumby going to Millwall and Preston nets us £150,000 (Preston was half a season I think), that £800,000 has actually been put out there and they are a newly relegated Premier League team. I think that £150,000 covers what we paid Railway Athletic for the then 16 year old. as I said I think the £800,000 would cover the wages we paid for him. With Gykores lets say St Pauli paid £50,000 Coventry and Swansea ended up paying the £100,000 between them for that season thats £150,000 to add to the £100,000 profit. I think £250,000 covers the wages of a youngster for 3 season especially when you consider the two championship sides most likely cover his wages and St Pauli say half his wages.. If you look at Walton, he had 2 seasons in the Championship so lets say thats £200,000, hes at Ipswich now and they have loads of money so lets say we told them £100,000 aswell so thats £300,000 he had another 2 short stints in League 1 so lets say £50,000 all together and one in league 2 so £20,000 so about £370,000 over 8 loan stints, I would say that covers what we paid for Walton.

Not sure borrowing Ben White for half a season makes Darragh McAnthony an expert on Brighton's financial dealings! Even if you're speculations are accurate, that only takes into account the players - there are also costs of running the development centre to be taken into account, coaching staff wages, other staff costs. It's the club as a whole that needs to be sustainable, not just individual players.
Selling Gyokeres for £180K more than we paid for him isn't really the profit margin we need to be turning over. Sure, not every youngster on our books is going to be the next Ben White, but we do need a few to be edging a bit nearer that end of the deal rather than £180K capital .profit on a £900 investment

 

[southstandandy]

Exactly

We just need b,w,2 to turn up and remind us that the failure to spend £20 m on a a striker will result in instant relegation,financial meltdown and a return to the stone age!

Don't worry - he's on my blocked list!

 

[andy1980]

Not sure borrowing Ben White for half a season makes Darragh McAnthony an expert on Brighton's financial dealings! Even if you're speculations are accurate, that only takes into account the players - there are also costs of running the development centre to be taken into account, coaching staff wages, other staff costs. It's the club as a whole that needs to be sustainable, not just individual players.
Selling Gyokeres for £180K more than we paid for him isn't really the profit margin we need to be turning over. Sure, not every youngster on our books is going to be the next Ben White, but we do need a few to be edging a bit nearer that end of the deal rather than £180K capital .profit on a £900 investment

If the Molumby and Karbownik value of their options to buy are true then what they cost us will be covered aswell as the annual cost of running the Academy (it sounds like its about £5m to run the Academy), who knows if we can do that every season but its a start.

 

[nwgull]

There’s also the less obvious value of the players that are in our first-team squad, and how much they’d have cost to buy if they’d not come through the system.

 

[um bongo molongo]

Most of the £50m from the White sale has already been spent :

Sima £8m
Cucurella £18m
Scherpen £2.5m
Mwepu £18m

Add in their wages and I suspect that's more than £50m.

That assumes there wasn’t a transfer budget at all without selling White, which I doubt. There’s little doubt if we could have done a deal for Nunez or Gonzalez we would have done.