3G pitches

[Arthur]

Worthing have come a cropper because of their pitch (https://worthingfc.com/2017/08/08/club-statement-pitch-fails-fifa-testing/) and look likely to play their home fixtures at Bognor this season. My club Crowborough are playing their home games at Maidstone albeit for very different reasons but 3G related. Ashford have had and continue to have issues with their pitch.

So are they more hassle than they are worth or the future for "grass" (yes the irony isn't lost on me!) roots football in this country?

They cost an awful lot of money to put in. I'm told the one at Waterhall used by the rugby club wasn't far off being 7 figures. I believe the cost of Crowborough's is around the £660k mark. I'm guessing if the chap at Worthing has put in £800k that was around a similar figure. You've got to rent it out a lot of times to see a return on that investment. However a lot of clubs seem to be doing it these days.

A big part of me thinks football should be played on grass whatever but I could quite easily make an argument to say its cracking seeing decent passing football played lower down the football pyramid.

I've not been to Eastbourne Borough since they've had theirs put in. Is it any good?

 

[Bold Seagull]

Worthing have come a cropper because of their pitch (https://worthingfc.com/2017/08/08/club-statement-pitch-fails-fifa-testing/) and look likely to play their home fixtures at Bognor this season. My club Crowborough are playing their home games at Maidstone albeit for very different reasons but 3G related. Ashford have had and continue to have issues with their pitch.

So are they more hassle than they are worth or the future for "grass" (yes the irony isn't lost on me!) roots football in this country?

They cost an awful lot of money to put in. I'm told the one at Waterhall used by the rugby club wasn't far off being 7 figures. I believe the cost of Crowborough's is around the £660k mark. I'm guessing if the chap at Worthing has put in £800k that was around a similar figure. You've got to rent it out a lot of times to see a return on that investment. However a lot of clubs seem to be doing it these days.

A big part of me thinks football should be played on grass whatever but I could quite easily make an argument to say its cracking seeing decent passing football played lower down the football pyramid.

I've not been to Eastbourne Borough since they've had theirs put in. Is it any good?

The clubs that have put them in are able to gain an income from their ground 7 days per week – it pays for itself pretty quickly. In terms of response, even skeptical fans have had to admit that the football is very good, both home and visiting fans.

What hurts non league clubs is postponements. They don't have the technology of the bigger clubs, and 4 or 5 postponements across the winter period is a big loss of income, that although the games are replayed at a later date, when fixtures are squeezed into 3 per week as they sometimes are, the fans simply don't turn up for all of them like they would if they were spread out. So the income last can hit a club hard. Take that out of the equation with a 3G that you can hire out regularly, you're looking at real financial security.

 

[Arthur]

The clubs that have put them in are able to gain an income from their ground 7 days per week - it pays for itself pretty quickly.

That's the dream that is being sold. I'd be interested to know what the reality is though. Do you have any first hand knowledge as to what sort of return a should be looking to make a year? Appreciate there are a lot of variables involved but I'm struggling to see how Crowborough can justify it. Even if they make £1k a week that's still 13 years before its paid for itself and that's without bringing into account interest on the loan, upkeep costs and the cost of having someone come and open close the place. Then if you have a disasters like it sounds like Worthing and Ashford (although word is they did it on the cheap so less sympathy for them) have had it could end up crippling clubs.

In terms of response, even skeptical fans have had to admit that the football is very good, both home and visiting fans.

Totally agree. I watch a lot of non league football the quality of pitches varies massively but isn't that part of the appeal watching football at a lower level?

What hurts non league clubs is postponements. They don't have the technology of the bigger clubs, and 4 or 5 postponements across the winter period is a big loss of income, that although the games are replayed at a later date, when fixtures are squeezed into 3 per week as they sometimes are, the fans simply don't turn up for all of them like they would if they were spread out. So the income last can hit a club hard. Take that out of the equation with a 3G that you can hire out regularly, you're looking at real financial security.

Absolutely most non league clubs rely on the generosity of volunteers as well. To bring up my own club as again (sorry), at Crowborough they massively tapped into the junior section last year every Saturday one of the younger lot would be mascots for the day. Some of the age groups especially the very young ones could easily have 30 kids. If they brought mum, dad, granny and grandad you could easily add 100 on the gate. Ok the didn't add much to the gate balance sheet but I know the bar and tea bar benefitted massively. Obviously you can't really do that for midweek games.

That's another reason why its such a shame the club has shipped over to Maidstone. They were starting to get a bit of traction getting people through the door. Its a lot harder sell getting people to do do a two hour 50 mile round trip to watch a game of step 5 football.

 

[Bold Seagull]

That's the dream that is being sold. I'd be interested to know what the reality is though. Do you have any first hand knowledge as to what sort of return a should be looking to make a year? Appreciate there are a lot of variables involved but I'm struggling to see how Crowborough can justify it. Even if they make £1k a week that's still 13 years before its paid for itself and that's without bringing into account interest on the loan, upkeep costs and the cost of having someone come and open close the place. Then if you have a disasters like it sounds like Worthing and Ashford (although word is they did it on the cheap so less sympathy for them) have had it could end up crippling clubs.

Totally agree. I watch a lot of non league football the quality of pitches varies massively but isn't that part of the appeal watching football at a lower level?

Absolutely most non league clubs rely on the generosity of volunteers as well. To bring up my own club as again (sorry), at Crowborough they massively tapped into the junior section last year every Saturday one of the younger lot would be mascots for the day. Some of the age groups especially the very young ones could easily have 30 kids. If they brought mum, dad, granny and grandad you could easily add 100 on the gate. Ok the didn't add much to the gate balance sheet but I know the bar and tea bar benefitted massively. Obviously you can't really do that for midweek games.

That's another reason why its such a shame the club has shipped over to Maidstone. They were starting to get a bit of traction getting people through the door. Its a lot harder sell getting people to do do a two hour 50 mile round trip to watch a game of step 5 football.

I think for an evening you can rent out 1/3 pitch for about £40 ph. I know because I try to book pitches for our youth team Fishersgate Flyers, and believe me most 3Gs get fully booked 6pm through to 10pm during the season. On weekday evening slots alone they can make £400 to £500 per day. Couple that with weekends, and some weekday renting and you're easily pushing it to around £3k per week, £12k per month or so. Subtract the costs of maintaining the upkeep of a grass surface, annual maintenance, reseeding of that and you're fast getting that repayment down to 3 or 4 years with a steady income stream to cover the loan.

 

[Springal]

I hope Worthing get sorted out. They've done things properly and by the book so would be terrible for them to suffer any financial loss over and above gates etc they'd normally benefit from. Agree also that its good to see how busy these pitches are throughout the week.

I remember watching Worthing and you rarely got to go on the pitch as a kid, where as now at half time / end of game you get loads of kids kicking around on it.

 

[Arthur]

I think for an evening you can rent out 1/3 pitch for about £40 ph. I know because I try to book pitches for our youth team Fishersgate Flyers, and believe me most 3Gs get fully booked 6pm through to 10pm during the season. On weekday evening slots alone they can make £400 to £500 per day. Couple that with weekends, and some weekday renting and you're easily pushing it to around £3k per week, £12k per month or so. Subtract the costs of maintaining the upkeep of a grass surface, annual maintenance, reseeding of that and you're fast getting that repayment down to 3 or 4 years with a steady income stream to cover the loan.

Thanks. That's very interesting and certainly explains why so many clubs are clambering to do it.

 

[BNthree]

I hope Worthing get sorted out. They've done things properly and by the book so would be terrible for them to suffer any financial loss over and above gates etc they'd normally benefit from. .

Went there for a couple of games last season and the ground/club house was really nice which meant they were getting decent crowds through the gate. Having to play at Bognor is not going to help them with money from admission fees.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I think for an evening you can rent out 1/3 pitch for about £40 ph. I know because I try to book pitches for our youth team Fishersgate Flyers, and believe me most 3Gs get fully booked 6pm through to 10pm during the season. On weekday evening slots alone they can make £400 to £500 per day. Couple that with weekends, and some weekday renting and you're easily pushing it to around £3k per week, £12k per month or so. Subtract the costs of maintaining the upkeep of a grass surface, annual maintenance, reseeding of that and you're fast getting that repayment down to 3 or 4 years with a steady income stream to cover the loan.

Thanks. That's very interesting and certainly explains why so many clubs are clambering to do it.

Add the benefit that the club's own teams can all train / play on it, rather than paying to rent facilities elsewhere.

 

[Smoky McPot]

Played a season on a 4G pitch in Taiwan last year and it was one of the best football pitches i've ever played on. Dealt with the odd typhoon or two and the pitch was fine. Was used on matchday generally 4 times in a day plus all the midweek games and training sessions and the pitch was still great.

Though sliding on it was particularly painful and the ball travels a little quicker compared to the crap pitches i've played on over here. All for it.

 

[Superphil]

The problem at Worthing is apparently due to the installation, pool of water I think, certainly drainage related. FIFA have got involved as the installers are FIFA approved so they need to sort it out. The plan at the moment is to reverse 4 of the early season fixtures and to play 2 home games at Bognor, they seem fairly confident in getting it sorted sooner rather than later.

 

[BigGully]

Although I understand the obvious financial advantages (if one exists) and during a particularly rainy February it seems to make even more sense, a decent grass pitch beats an astro pitch every time for me.

 

[Superseagull]

How bad does a 3G / 4G pitch have to be to get its FIFA licence revoked? If it's dangerous fair enough. Are we talking just a few small dips and rises. I'm sure Worthings pitch is still 10 times better than a grass one would be in the middle of winter.

 

[Superphil]

How bad does a 3G / 4G pitch have to be to get its FIFA licence revoked? If it's dangerous fair enough. Are we talking just a few small dips and rises. I'm sure Worthings pitch is still 10 times better than a grass one would be in the middle of winter.

From their website

"CLUB NEWS Tuesday 8 August 2017, 21:00 BST
Club Statement: Pitch fails FIFA testing

The artificial pitch at Woodside Road has failed three FIFA quality test certificate inspections this summer due to uneven areas meaning the club are unable to play on it.

The club has had issues with the surface ever since it was laid in 2015 culminating in the postponement of January’s first team fixture with Billericay Town due to flooding. The continual flooding has now caused movement in the stone base underneath the surface which has resulted in the pitch becoming uneven.

FIFA have been monitoring the situation over a few months and have now stepped in to help with the issue currently out of the club’s hands and football’s governing body deeming the pitch must be completely relaid."

It appears it's a faulty installation, which hopefully they'll get put right at the expense of the (FIFA accredited) company that installed it a couple of years ago.

 

[Kneon Light]

Personally think they have messed up at Crowborough and can't see it happening. We'll see though.

 

[drew]

Add the benefit that the club's own teams can all train / play on it, rather than paying to rent facilities elsewhere.

Also add in the fact you are almost guaranteed training as well as matches. The girls team I manage train on a school 3g pitch and in three years of being there we haven't missed a week of training (apart of course from planned breaks during school holidays).

 

[Boys 9d]

FIFA have approved such pitches to be used for International matches and I believed Russia at home have used them. When Maidstone first had theirs' one of the first. if not the first matches was a friendly against the Albion after which Gus Poyet was very complimentary.
Even when maintained properly, they still have to be renewed periodically although the sub surface if properly laid (unlike Worthing's) can be reused. I believe Maidstone have a special fund which takes a percentage of its rental fees to bank towards the time renewal is necessary.

 

[Arthur]

Personally think they have messed up at Crowborough and can't see it happening. We'll see though.

What makes you say that?

FIFA have approved such pitches to be used for International matches and I believed Russia at home have used them. When Maidstone first had theirs' one of the first. if not the first matches was a friendly against the Albion after which Gus Poyet was very complimentary.
Even when maintained properly, they still have to be renewed periodically although the sub surface if properly laid (unlike Worthing's) can be reused. I believe Maidstone have a special fund which takes a percentage of its rental fees to bank towards the time renewal is necessary.

Maidstone's pitch is head and shoulders the best artificial pitch I've seen so said fund is working very well for them.

 

[Kneon Light]

What makes you say that?

We were told it would start as soon as last season finished. New season due to start and no signs of any work.
Lack of money for some basic things (eg kits/balls for some of the youth groups) makes me wonder if this is actually happening and if the money is really there.

 

[BigGully]

I think for an evening you can rent out 1/3 pitch for about £40 ph. I know because I try to book pitches for our youth team Fishersgate Flyers, and believe me most 3Gs get fully booked 6pm through to 10pm during the season. On weekday evening slots alone they can make £400 to £500 per day. Couple that with weekends, and some weekday renting and you're easily pushing it to around £3k per week, £12k per month or so. Subtract the costs of maintaining the upkeep of a grass surface, annual maintenance, reseeding of that and you're fast getting that repayment down to 3 or 4 years with a steady income stream to cover the loan.

Isnt the real risk the initial significant outlay and the many necessary factors that would need to be met for it to becomes viable, you have cited the current demand which is encouraging but how quickly might these pitches become outdated with a newer version being demanded by prospective hirers and probably offered very near elsewhere very soon.

Generally non league football clubs hardly cover themselves with glory when it comes to fiscal planning.

 

[Arthur]

We were told it would start as soon as last season finished. New season due to start and no signs of any work.
Lack of money for some basic things (eg kits/balls for some of the youth groups) makes me wonder if this is actually happening and if the money is really there.

Well from what I've been told. I believe the finance is not in place but I understand that won't be an issue it's just taken longer than expected to resolve.

The bigger issue is the 12m of land they want to extend the width of the pitch by. The main pitch is owned by the playing fields authority (or whatever its called) and the pitch in front of the club house is owned by the council. So the club has had to find a similar sized bit of land to swap. Which i understand they have done but the planning process has been a pain in the backside. I'm not sure if that is resolved yet but I'm guessing by the lack of work possibly not. I also know the alderbrook residents are starting to make a bit of noise as they've realised the clubs plans for usage which I can only think is going to hold things up even further.

Can't speak about the junior side and lack of resources myself but I do know from the AGM the main backers promised to put in a lot more money than they actually did. What they did put in was a still a considerable sum but only about 65% of what was promised so I'm not surprised there are gaps in the funding.